F1technical.net

I've seen there is an old thread about removing orange peel from surfaces, but my question is different. I've noticed many cars, even new and from premium manufacturers, say MB, have orange peel all over the paint finish, and it's clearly visible. Now, that wasn't the case some 15-20 years ago, if I remember well. I'm curious what is the reason for this kind of paint finish, even with premium manufacturers? I guess it has to do something with water based paint, but what is the exact cause? Faster thinner evaporation, different paint applying techniques, or something else?

An example from MB.

Do you mean this thread, with near identical pics?

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... range+peel

Well, this is more like a general automotive thread about the causes of orange peel on new cars. I've noticed the thread you mentioned, but I guess it's not the same kind of stuff.

its new VOC paint chemistry, Move to more robotic painting. No more color sand paint on premium brands.

My 63 Conti had paint that was sprayed by hand then wet sanded and buffed before it left the factory. Today there rarely even mask parts

Dupont.us suggests at least 9 possibles:
http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/vis ... ePeel.html

Besides faulty spray practises, my opinion is that too many owners accept it without complaint, if dealers had to rebate $500 a car; factory paint application would probably improve.

Mercedes factory paint is nothing short of shocking. Fords are quite brutal too from the few I've seen recently.
Very few mainstream manufacturers if any would stand up to scrutiny by anyone who knows what they are looking for,
The thing is the vast majority of customers just don't see the half of it.

Waterbase, high solids low voc clear coats, ultra high solids direct gloss, minimal paint coverage = poor finish.

It's not impossible to get a proper finish, just not financially viable for mainstream production.

That Is why I find is funny that so many people spend a fortune on waxes for new cars, two pack paint on mainstream car is exceptionally poor. Also note show cars are classed as golden cars in automotive world they have had everything blueprinted including the the paint so the fit and finish looks better than production spec

Carlos wrote:Dupont.us suggests at least 9 possibles:
http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/vis ... ePeel.html

Besides faulty spray practises, my opinion is that too many owners accept it without complaint, if dealers had to rebate $500 a car; factory paint application would probably improve.

Made them buff out the Stang, but you can only do so much,,,
The paint is not thick enough on a factory paint job to color sand it.
It mostly has to do with poor pressure btw

The mass market customers want corrosion free low maintenance paint, regulators want low pollution, and the company wants low cost.

Today's mass market paint systems seem to meet that criteria very well. Rusty cars are distant memory (apart from very very old cars). One could also quote the very long corrosion warranties, although a cynic could argue they are just a financial gamble balancing probability cost of claims versus marketing impact and reduced production costs.

It´s just a different method of putting on the paint according to BMW.

strad wrote:

Carlos wrote:Dupont.us suggests at least 9 possibles:
http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/vis ... ePeel.html

Besides faulty spray practises, my opinion is that too many owners accept it without complaint, if dealers had to rebate $500 a car; factory paint application would probably improve.

Made them buff out the Stang, but you can only do so much,,,
The paint is not thick enough on a factory paint job to color sand it.
It mostly has to do with poor pressure btw

you cant color sand clear coated paint. You can cut and buff the clear coat and you can do it to new cars. The issues is most factory clear coats are hard as rocks VAG being the worst I've seen. Its hard to get all of the marring out from buffing and all of the sanding scratches out.


Not sure what you mean by poor pressure as it is completely depended on the type of gun nozzle and paint system being used. Its not like they are spraying these cars with a binks #9 spray gun anymore. A modern manufacturing spray system is worlds apart from what an auto body shop is going to use.

I would guess most car manufactures to be using a high fluid pressure 2k mix on demand system with no added VOCs. Maybe a small air assist to adjust the pattern. They can probably switch colors and formulation on demand.

not the most exciting reading but this is a Wagner system http://www.wagnersystemsinc.com/portal/ ... 45924.html

It is all to do with what is the acceptable factory finish set by the quality department. They base this on factory cost and production speed and what the customer will accept. I think the Japanese customer are the most fussy about paint finish on cars.

Not sure what you mean by poor pressure as it is completely depended on the type of gun nozzle and paint system being used. Its not like they are spraying these cars with a binks #9 spray gun anymore. A modern manufacturing spray system is worlds apart from what an auto body shop is going to use.

I understand and according to a friend that worked for GM, they keep the pressure as low as they can get away with...and I wish the Mustangs clear coat was hard,,,seems really soft to me.

Having sold several brands, I'll say BMW, Jaguar and Toyota have the best paint, Dodge and Chevy quite poor. Consumer Reports survey on reliability is a pretty good metric for quality:

Toyota brands 1, 2, 3 (Scion, Toyota, Lexus)
Honda 6th
Cadillac 11th
M-B 14th
Chrysler 23rd
Dodge 24th
Dodge "Ram" 25th
Lincoln 26th
Ford 27th

Please note: "orange peel" is intentional on the lower rocker panels of some vehicles to resist stone chips

I think Lexus has the best paint.