Red Bull RB9 Renault

[Artur Craft]

@richard_leeds
Where is my post about RBR rake concept related to frontwing height and tire deformation? This was only about the car. So why got it moved or deleted?

Do you have any pictures that show they are using a higher front wing?

Btw, I don't see why would anybody lift their FW no matter that the tire's sidewall are softer now and, obviously, flex more.

How would lifting your FW improve that airflow around a less consistent passage through the "outside" of the tires, as they now are less rigid due to 2013's construction?

Thanks in advance.

[beelsebob]

@richard_leeds
Where is my post about RBR rake concept related to frontwing height and tire deformation? This was only about the car. So why got it moved or deleted?

Do you have any pictures that show they are using a higher front wing?

Btw, I don't see why would anybody lift their FW no matter that the tire's sidewall are softer now and, obviously, flex more.

How would lifting your FW improve that airflow around a less consistent passage through the "outside" of the tires, as they now are less rigid due to 2013's construction?

Thanks in advance.

Lifting the front wing would make the limiting factor for rake be the splitter instead of the front wing. They're trying to get both of them as close to the ground as possible, so they lift the front wing until the splitter is nearly scraping the ground with their desired rake angle.

[Artur Craft]

I can see them lifting FW in order to put more rake in the car and, therefore, the splittler closer to ground, but why is it related to the 2013 tires, as I think gandharva was claiming it to?

Sorry gandharva if I misunderstood what you said!

[gandharva]

The 2013 tires deform more under load. They compress more. This is why they have to use a higher frontwing to prevent it to touch the ground. As soon as you lift the frontwing, you will also have to lift the diffusor/back to maintain the same rake level and car balance. But the higher the diffusor gets, the harder it is to seal by exhaust gases.

[lio007]

hope that somebody can answer my question: is the RB9 front or rear limited in terms of tyres or where do they have more problems?

thanks in advance!

[raymondu999]

RB has been weaker at front-limited circuits - Raikkonen and Alonso has beaten Vettel at every front limited circuit this year - Melbourne, China, Barcelona.

When the rear is the limitation, Vettel has beaten Raikkonen and Alonso at every race - Malaysia, Bahrain, Monaco. However Alonso was closer to victory in Malaysia and Bahrain (in terms of pace) than Vettel was in China or Barcelona - indicating that the rear-limited advantage of the Red Bull is not as big as it's front-limited disadvantage.

[lio007]

ah...ok!
so it could be that the revised rear-tyres (kevlar instead of steel) would help RB not as much as e.g. Mercedes?

or another question that came in my mind:
let's assume that the new tyres could be used the whole race-weekend starting at the silverstone GP.
do they get opportunities to change the setup which relieves the front tyres and last them longer?

maybe a weird question...so obviously i'm more a greenhorn than a specialist

[bhall]

@richard_leeds
Where is my post about RBR rake concept related to frontwing height and tire deformation? This was only about the car. So why got it moved or deleted?

Seconded. It was a very good question IMO and I would like to see what others have to say about the theory.

I think the regulations are such that a team can't really lift the front wing without significantly impacting its performance. The only way to do so, it seems, would be to make the entire wing structure smaller from top to bottom, which will sharply reduce its AoA, because no part of the front wing can be higher than 275mm above the reference plane.

3.7.1 All bodywork situated forward of a point lying 330mm behind the front wheel centre line, and more than 250mm from the car centre line, must be no less than 75mm and no more than 275mm above the reference plane.

[beelsebob]

@richard_leeds
Where is my post about RBR rake concept related to frontwing height and tire deformation? This was only about the car. So why got it moved or deleted?

Seconded. It was a very good question IMO and I would like to see what others have to say about the theory.

I think the regulations are such that a team can't really lift the front wing without significantly impacting its performance. The only way to do so, it seems, would be to make the entire wing structure smaller from top to bottom, which will sharply reduce its AoA, because no part of the front wing can be higher than 275mm above the reference plane.

3.7.1 All bodywork situated forward of a point lying 330mm behind the front wheel centre line, and more than 250mm from the car centre line, must be no less than 75mm and no more than 275mm above the reference plane.

That gives them a 20cm high box to play in. The wings are significantly more shallow than that.

[Artur Craft]

The 2013 tires deform more under load. They compress more. This is why they have to use a higher frontwing to prevent it to touch the ground. As soon as you lift the frontwing, you will also have to lift the diffusor/back to maintain the same rake level and car balance. But the higher the diffusor gets, the harder it is to seal by exhaust gases.

Yes, I wrote some posts ago that the Pirelli's sidewall is softer in 2013, but that's the same for all teams. They all would have to lift their FW in order to it not hit the ground, I don't see this issue as an RB9's particularity, except for the bigger rake that the Red Bull cars, and RB9 is no exception, runs compared to all other cars
Maybe this could be making them suffer relatively more than the rivals, when it comes to downforce lost out of this, but we need to know if these 2013 tires are flexing, vertically, enough for them to have to really lift their FWs and if the amount of it is enough to have jeopardized Red Bull's downforce more than the others, as a consequence of their bigger rake.

Your theory is not bad, at all. It's actually very logical and etc but we gotta find out if this circunstance, brought by the 2013 Pirellis, is really having the effect your hypothesis claim it to be

The first thing to look for, straightaway, is a confirmation, rather from a photographic evidence or team's engineer interview/whisper and etc, that they really needed to lift their FW due to the tires.

After that is confirmed, then we can really have some basis here to understand what possibly have been Red Bull's problem, or part of it, in this season

[bhall]

That gives them a 20cm high box to play in. The wings are significantly more shallow than that.

They're really not. Compare the endplate of a wing to the outer wheel rim, which we know is 358mm, and you'll see.

[beelsebob]

That gives them a 20cm high box to play in. The wings are significantly more shallow than that.

They're really not. Compare the endplate of a wing to the outer wheel rim, which we know is 358mm, and you'll see.

Yeh okay, fair point.

[Artur Craft]

So given the big AoAs that they are still using on FWs, and as it's not breaking the height limit as brought by bhallg2k(thanks very much for that, btw ), we can deduce teams did not lift their FWs

It was a good theory, though, gandharva

[stefan_]

Canada 2013 - Thursday (06.06.2013)





via AMuS

[Kiril Varbanov]

http://img2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Red ... 690901.jpg

I suppose these are the new prototype tires, in the correct direction.