Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Big Tea
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/ ... ors.aspx#/

There seems to be a trend developing that is moving away from a few huge generators supplying a country towards modular regional units that not only would have lower losses but could chose which area is likely to suffer from loss of sunshine or wind, and places with (24 hr) hydro and wave power.

At last, some sense and science is becoming involve and believed.



Incidental- if you read the backstory to the link, this is sponsored or supported by an oil producer - Qatar Investment Authority
Ironic, or good thinking?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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afaik
SMRs like other Rs are rather inefficient - because their metallurgical limits are low they make lots of waste heat
but couldn't towns be clustered around them ? - to be heated by the waste heat
this would be outstanding in decarbonisation terms - any takers ??
all (UK) nuclear stations seem to be sited in remote coastal situations

and ....
Siemens Mobility has a UK branch (does it offset all that German coal-burning ?)
SM's ehighway 'trolley-truck' system would be 73% efficient electricity-to-wheel (lying they call this well-to-wheel)
https://www.mobility.siemens.com/global ... ghway.html
ie line losses are as I predicted
but it's attractive as it appears to make particulate pollution disappear (if we ignore all that wood-fired generation)
on my TV .....

then a pressure group scrutinising the 'zero net carbon by 2050' policy
and allegations that this GreeNazi policy is driven by the PM's unelected but hotter-than-the-4th-of-July young wife
and last year's Minister who didn't see the difference between decarbonising electricity and decarbonising all energy

I'm glad to see that Andres sees the difference - this being what I've said on this site for 10 years


UK solar farms capacity factor is only 10% - (but we're still told that this electricity is the cheapest - how ?)
it's ok though - the UK does have the best tidal power site in the world

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Andres125sx
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Greg Locock wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:37 pm
Sorry, the scenario of no new nuclear power stations is exactly what is proposed for the USA, Australia, Germany, and we'll wait and see if team idiot in the UK follow along.

There's nothing to stop you adding nukes into that spreadsheet, they are just batteries that don't need to be charged.

So, I've done what you asked, now you do what I ask.

Propose an energy mix to zero emissions for the market of your choice.

<…>
Sorry but I´ve read enough biased reports coming from oil companies to manipulate public opinion at their will to reckon one at first sight. That´s the reason when you posted that data, first thing I asked was the author of the report. Like it or not I was right

Report from Friends of Science

Friends of Science about us:
It is our opinion that the Sun is the main direct and indirect driver of climate change.
https://friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=1

Friends of Science position statement:
While FoS does not do any original scientific research, it draws on the
worldwide body of work by scientists in all fields relating to global
climate change.
https://friendsofscience.org/assets/fil ... temen1.pdf

Author of the report: Ken Gregory

Ken Gregory current position: Manager Engineering, Exalta Energy
Industry: Oil and Gas
Sub-Industry: Oil and Gas producers
https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/person/15371390


So not a scientific report, and from an author who works for an oil company, who obviously is interested in discreditting renewables as much as possible

Basically that report is utter BS

Greg Locock
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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A key tactic of modern commentary is to denigrate the source of an argument rather than engage with the content.

So... what's wrong with https://www.withouthotair.com/, which comes to much the same conclusions about the UK?

here' the autuhor
David MacKay FRS is the Regius Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge. He studied Natural Sciences at Cambridge and then obtained his PhD in Computation and Neural Systems at the California Institute of Technology. He returned to Cambridge as a Royal Society research fellow at Darwin College. He is internationally known for his research in machine learning, information theory, and communication systems, including the invention of Dasher, a software interface that enables efficient communication in any language with any muscle. He was appointed a Lecturer in the Department of Physics at Cambridge in 1995 and was a Professor in the Department of Physics from 2003 to 2013. Since 2005, he has devoted much of his time to public teaching about energy. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society.

Nine months after the publication of 'Sustainable Energy - without the hot air', David MacKay was appointed Chief Scientific Advisor to the Department of Energy and Climate Change.

Greg Locock
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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From which his conclusion is (p233)

The bottom line
Let’s be realistic. Just like Britain, Europe can’t live on its own renewables. So
if the aim is to get off fossil fuels, Europe needs nuclear power, or solar
power in other people’s deserts (as discussed on p179), or both.

J.A.W.
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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A flicker of progress on the Fusion front, a harbinger of futuristic progress - perhaps?

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-60312633
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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Big Tea
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:21 pm
From which his conclusion is (p233)

The bottom line
Let’s be realistic. Just like Britain, Europe can’t live on its own renewables. So
if the aim is to get off fossil fuels, Europe needs nuclear power, or solar
power in other people’s deserts (as discussed on p179), or both.
I read an article some time back, about bringing solar from Sahara to UK. I have looked but can not find it so will have to report on it and let it at that, as I don't remember numbers. I had workings for the amount of supply a single underwater cable could bring, and loss over length and explain the usual about it needing to be very high voltage so step up and boost kit needed etc and I think the result was in hundreds of billions initially and tens of billions annual up keep. As I say, I cannot find it now (but will keep looking) and the bottom like was it would be unfeasible even if a 'deal' could be done with unstable regimes to set it up and leave it alone.

Apologies for having lost the article, and not even remembering the sauce but it was last year when I spent some time in hospital so read all day every day and dumped the memory when it got full. If anyone does have, or find, it I would appreciate a link.

There is one here but it was not this
https://www.itv.com/news/2021-11-03/how ... o-uk-homes
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Greg Locock
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Here's an example, a bit longer than you'd need, but probably only 1/10 the power rating

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapo ... nk-2256096

Pretty cheap compared with your numbers.

We have a lot of interconnectors in the eastern seaboard network in Australia. The Tasmanians occasionally blow theirs up in desperation to fulfill expensive mainland electricity prices, so end up powering the island on diesel instead of hydro.

here's one Sahara->UK proposal
https://www.globalconstructionreview.co ... n%20Sahara

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Andres125sx
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:02 pm
A key tactic of modern commentary is to denigrate the source of an argument rather than engage with the content.
Do you know an even more common modern tactic? Taking the most absurd opinions from your adversary and show how absurd it is to make people think he´s stupid and you´re right.

Only ignorants have said nuclear power is not needed. None with a brain have ever said the contrary, so writing an article about how unfeasible it is is just... #-o
Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:02 pm
So... what's wrong with https://www.withouthotair.com/, which comes to much the same conclusions about the UK?

here' the autuhor
David MacKay FRS is the Regius Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge. He studied Natural Sciences at Cambridge and then obtained his PhD in Computation and Neural Systems at the California Institute of Technology. He returned to Cambridge as a Royal Society research fellow at Darwin College. He is internationally known for his research in machine learning, information theory, and communication systems, including the invention of Dasher, a software interface that enables efficient communication in any language with any muscle. He was appointed a Lecturer in the Department of Physics at Cambridge in 1995 and was a Professor in the Department of Physics from 2003 to 2013. Since 2005, he has devoted much of his time to public teaching about energy. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society.

Nine months after the publication of 'Sustainable Energy - without the hot air', David MacKay was appointed Chief Scientific Advisor to the Department of Energy and Climate Change.
I´ll take a look when I have some spare time, but let me question this, why renewables in UK must be based on solar wich in UK is anything but constant, or based on a far solar farm in a desert wich obviously will be astronomicly expensive if feasible instead of, for example, tidal power wich is more constant, reliable and can be done around UK?

I say tidal as it could be sea waves or whatever other source available in UK


Even so nuclear will be needed for many decades, but if the basis of the study is flawed...

Greg Locock
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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When/if you'll read it you'll find out why tidal is not emough. I'll wait.

"Only ignorants have said nuclear power is not needed"

Ignorant they may be but that is the effective position of the USA German and Australian governments by 2050. No nukes.

nickmilers
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Thanks for this interesting information!

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Big Tea
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Andres125sx wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 8:02 am
Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:02 pm
A key tactic of modern commentary is to denigrate the source of an argument rather than engage with the content.
Do you know an even more common modern tactic? Taking the most absurd opinions from your adversary and show how absurd it is to make people think he´s stupid and you´re right.

Only ignorants have said nuclear power is not needed. None with a brain have ever said the contrary, so writing an article about how unfeasible it is is just... #-o
Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:02 pm
So... what's wrong with https://www.withouthotair.com/, which comes to much the same conclusions about the UK?

here' the autuhor
David MacKay FRS is the Regius Professor of Engineering at the University of Cambridge. He studied Natural Sciences at Cambridge and then obtained his PhD in Computation and Neural Systems at the California Institute of Technology. He returned to Cambridge as a Royal Society research fellow at Darwin College. He is internationally known for his research in machine learning, information theory, and communication systems, including the invention of Dasher, a software interface that enables efficient communication in any language with any muscle. He was appointed a Lecturer in the Department of Physics at Cambridge in 1995 and was a Professor in the Department of Physics from 2003 to 2013. Since 2005, he has devoted much of his time to public teaching about energy. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society.

Nine months after the publication of 'Sustainable Energy - without the hot air', David MacKay was appointed Chief Scientific Advisor to the Department of Energy and Climate Change.
I´ll take a look when I have some spare time, but let me question this, why renewables in UK must be based on solar wich in UK is anything but constant, or based on a far solar farm in a desert wich obviously will be astronomicly expensive if feasible instead of, for example, tidal power wich is more constant, reliable and can be done around UK?

I say tidal as it could be sea waves or whatever other source available in UK


Even so nuclear will be needed for many decades, but if the basis of the study is flawed...
There was a plan for a tidal station in 'Swansea bay' but it was first reconfigured due to cost then dropped altogether.

320 MW cost of £1.3 billion. Generates for 20+ hrs a day was supposedly thought 'not value for money'
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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nzjrs
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Greg Locock wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:02 pm
So... what's wrong with https://www.withouthotair.com/, which comes to much the same conclusions about the UK?
Interesting, had not seen that site before. It looks quite well resourced and argued. Thanks.

Greg Locock
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Incidentally. "Of the 100 reactors operating in the U.S., ground was broken on all of them in 1974 or earlier." Matthew L. Wald (December 7, 2010). "Nuclear 'Renaissance' Is Short on Largess". The New York Times. So they are all getting on for half a century old.

Germany "Germany has set itself a dual goal with its energy transition, or Energiewende: The country wants to move from fossil fuel-based energy generation to a largely carbon-free energy sector while also phasing out nuclear energy by 2022." https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factshe ... -phase-out

Meanwhile the price of many chemicals used in batteries has increased and is expected to drive the cost of batteries up from last year's record low of $132/kWh. For example in the past year lithium carbonate has increased in price by 400% https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

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Big Tea
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Re: Energy distribution (and electricity generation)

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Greg Locock wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:29 pm
Incidentally. "Of the 100 reactors operating in the U.S., ground was broken on all of them in 1974 or earlier." Matthew L. Wald (December 7, 2010). "Nuclear 'Renaissance' Is Short on Largess". The New York Times. So they are all getting on for half a century old.

Germany "Germany has set itself a dual goal with its energy transition, or Energiewende: The country wants to move from fossil fuel-based energy generation to a largely carbon-free energy sector while also phasing out nuclear energy by 2022." https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factshe ... -phase-out

Meanwhile the price of many chemicals used in batteries has increased and is expected to drive the cost of batteries up from last year's record low of $132/kWh. For example in the past year lithium carbonate has increased in price by 400% https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
That demonstrates the gap in political statements and real world.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.