F1technical.net

Hey

I am involved in Formula Student. For those of you who doesn't know, it's an international competition organized by Institue of Mechanical Engineers (IMechE) in association with Soiety of Automotive Engineers (SAE). It started off in US and I'm currently involved for the one held in UK. Last year (2005) saw 80 teams from around the world compete here. It sees the group of young engineers like myself from diffrent university design, build, and compete in small single seater racing cars. For more detail see

http://www.formulastudent.com

Well it's an introduction, but hopefully there will be a community where people can help out on technical stuff. Well I'm hoping I can get some help at least from knowledgeable people who check out these forums. Additionally hope to make connection with people from industry so that they can see us young engineers and can pursue our goal of being employed in automotive industy.

Let's see how this goes.

I've been interessted in the FSAE and F. Student for a few years now...I've tried to convince a couple of mech engineering teachers at my uni....but no money means no project! I would love to participate in such a competition.

Untill a few months back I wasn't sure what I wanted to develop as a end of degree (I'm in aeronautical engineering) project...I decided to develop a F1 car aerodynamicly according to the 2008 regs....I've already started designing the mech parts that don't influence the airflow! (I'm using CATIA and will use FLUENT for the aero evaluation) The other option was to completly design a FSAE car....

Our faculty advisor funds our projects through his research. Naturally, an outside company will hire him for research and he usually gets 25-50 grand for grants; he will donate some of this money to our team.

For our Mini Baja car, a local steel company (Irvine Metal Supply) donated free metal for both our cars; I had to write a proposal to UROP (Undergraduate Research Opportunities) and received $2000.

Aspiring to be involved in motorsports in my future career, do you think it would look better on a resume, to be involved in a strong and improving solar car team that is funded better than baja or fsae, or a rather weak formula sae team? (university of calgary)

Calgary....hehe....I grew up in Edmonton....now I'm in Portugal (where I was born)! I be in Edmonton from the end of July to mid September 2006! hehe

Well IMO any of the choises seem to be good ones! It will depend on your roll in the team!

A team manager of a weak FSAE team....always sounds better then a mechanic on a relativy good solar car team! It really depends on your position inside the team! But it's all down to the selection process! In some cases your CV doesn't mean a thing....

As per subject im currently doing the bodywork for my formula student team and was wondering if technical shapes were worthwhile? Is there much point reducing drag and increasing downforce at these types of speeds?

A reduction of drag is advantageous... especially with the power you will be achieving with the 600cc. Downforce..... well now theres a question.... on paper it doesn't look much, but Drexel and Monash seem to sware it is advantageous and have got wind tunnel results that suggest they are achieving good downforce with not too much drag..... Monash won the sprint event in F. Student 2003/4 i think and Toronto were running venturis in the sidepods of their F.Student Champion 2004 Car.......

But in my opinion, the car your working on sion_williams, I know the concept is to minimise the frontal area. You need to reduce the drag as your car is massive this year.......

MrT

I talked to somebody who did FSAE (in the United States) and said that the course is mainly twisty with maybe one or two straights. He said that was the only time the car ever hit 60mph.

The reason I think only wings work on FSAE is the additional weight penalty you place on the tires, as opposed to real downforce. I think you should concentrate on low-drag bodywork instead.

As for the listed sports above, my friend got an interview with Lockheed Martin, and all they talked about was our Mini Baja project.

The University of Missouri-Rolla placed 4th out of 140 teams in '04 competing in the FSAE. But they mainly did it due to their lightning quick autocross time, which was fastest overall. Rolla was one of only a handfull of teams that were utilizing large wings. These did hurt their speed in some of the other events. It all depends on what your going for. I am transfering to Rolla in the fall and can't wait to join the team!

They also competed in '05 and placed 9th overall.

http://campus.umr.edu/fsae/

West wrote:I talked to somebody who did FSAE (in the United States) and said that the course is mainly twisty with maybe one or two straights. He said that was the only time the car ever hit 60mph.

The reason I think only wings work on FSAE is the additional weight penalty you place on the tires, as opposed to real downforce. I think you should concentrate on low-drag bodywork instead.

First, you must figure out your absolute top speed. If it's 60mph, then drag is not really much of an issue.

Also, if the track is mainly twisty, then, of course, you would want to work mainly on downforce and mechanical grip. Autocross works for small wheelbase, large track width, good grip.

More than anything, you will want to learn about how to achieve the best from the tires. You need to get them up to working temp ASAP, and keep them at that temp. Front and rear tires should be at same temp, ideally. Really hard to do in reality.

MrT wrote:A reduction of drag is advantageous... especially with the power you will be achieving with the 600cc. Downforce..... well now theres a question.... on paper it doesn't look much, but Drexel and Monash seem to sware it is advantageous and have got wind tunnel results that suggest they are achieving good downforce with not too much drag..... Monash won the sprint event in F. Student 2003/4 i think and Toronto were running venturis in the sidepods of their F.Student Champion 2004 Car.......

But in my opinion, the car your working on sion_williams, I know the concept is to minimise the frontal area. You need to reduce the drag as your car is massive this year.......

MrT

As someone from Toronto's FSAE team I feel the need to clarify....2003 car had Venturi undertray, we didn't have much testing or CFD with it but we think it does "something". But the mounting, packaging and the manufacturing of it was so rushed that it was badly implimented, and the idea was abandoned for 2004. 2005's car had an "exhaust extractor" trying to help extracting the exhaust gas with similar idea. It caught fire a few times then we redirected the exhaust....2006 car will have no bodywork other than a rad duct.

IMO, if you really want to do aero like Rolla, UTA or Monash does, and have the time to test it out and justify its use, all the powers to you(UTA is smoking fast every year). But plenty of teams have done well without aero. Rumour has it that Western Australia's car in the most recent FSAE Australasia comp was a handy 3 sec faster/lap in the endurance race than anybody else, thanks no doubt to their very advance "kinetics" system that uses hydralically linked damper to all 4 corners to control rolling and pitching, and they runs no aero.....I think if you can have the mechanical package sorted out fully you can have a fast car with or without aero, but it is definitely not the first thing to look at when making a FSAE car for a top speed of 60mph autoX course. In SCCA autoX where the track may be more open and fast then it might be worthwhile looking into....A-mod cars afterall are loaded with wings...

BTW, single most important element in FSAE for speed on track: Driver. 140 schools or amatuer "race car drivers", how many do you think they know fully what they are doing? UTA have always been fast because they've done a lot of driving with the car. Our fast driver from last year(4 years experience) at Michigan was 6 sec faster than our 2nd driver, who's on his first year competing in the same car with same setup. Our testing program this year will be focusing on driver training more than anything else because that fast driver graduated.....

BTW, single most important element in FSAE for speed on track: Driver. 140 schools or amatuer "race car drivers", how many do you think they know fully what they are doing? UTA have always been fast because they've done a lot of driving with the car. Our fast driver from last year(4 years experience) at Michigan was 6 sec faster than our 2nd driver, who's on his first year competing in the same car with same setup. Our testing program this year will be focusing on driver training more than anything else because that fast driver graduated.....

You hit the nail in the head! Most people do not like to admit how much a driver can make a difference. But the reality is, especially in something as quick as a FSAE car. Having someone who actually knows what their doing is a huge advantage over a team with a great car and having no one to bring out its potential, and if you have someone who is consistant then your ahead of the game!

Is there a rule that bans using a 'professional driver'? It seems like you could contract that duty out to someone not on the team, or not going to school. It'd be hilarious if your father were somebody like keke rosberg or something.

No ringers allowed.