Carbon Block?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
The FOZ
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Monstrobolaxa wrote:Using a carbon base like the brake discs and pads wouldn't work either...once again inside the combustion chamber the friction between the piston and the wall
Conventional brakes are steel rotors on semi-metallic pads. Traditional engine blocks are steel pistons on steel cylinders. That's why someone invented "motor oil"
...and the heat would wear out the wall and would also oxidize the carbon....
How will pure carbon oxidize? How does heat wear out cylinder walls?

With respect, you're either light-years ahead of me and I have no clue what you're talking about, or you're using some very flawed assumptions to back up your argument.

riff_raff
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Re: Carbon Block?

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FOZ,

There was a company called Polimotor that actually built and raced (in IMSA Camel Lights) a mostly plastic motor back in the mid-80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_automotive_engine

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

The FOZ
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Re: Carbon Block?

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riff_raff wrote:FOZ,

There was a company called Polimotor that actually built and raced (in IMSA Camel Lights) a mostly plastic motor back in the mid-80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_automotive_engine

Regards,
Terry
Yes, I vaguely recall that being the cover story in an issue of Popular Mechanics...WAY back in the day.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Carbon Block?

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Great info!
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Carlos
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Re: Carbon Block?

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An old thread with a lot of interesting links:

ICE/Motors Made of Plastic/Ceramic

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5164&start=0

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outer_bongolia
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Re: Carbon Block?

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Also another issue will be thermal expansion. The carbon section will have a different expansion coefficient than the metal. It's usually really hard to match multiple materials in the cylinders and pistons.
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safeaschuck
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Re: Carbon Block?

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As with anything I'm sure it could be done for demonstration purposes within a year, and eventually be competitive, if you wanted to increase the cost tenfold.
I would imagine if it happens it will be MotoGP that see's it first, the engines are scaled more sensibly for that sort of development and integreation may become more straightforward and beneficial, provided Ducati's Carbon frame catches on.
Did I really read (again) that Formula 1 is holding back the natural development curve of current technology by over regulation?
Could we have a disclaimer on the front page please?!

riff_raff
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Re: Carbon Block?

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CRC (carbon-reinforced-carbon) has actually been tried as a piston material. It's benefit would be that CRC has low density, high stiffness, high strength, and excellent thermal stability. The drawback of CRC (as a piston material) is that it is very abrasive, has very low thermal conductivity, is very difficult to fabricate, and oxidizes at temps above about 1000degF.

http://www.schunk-group.com/sixcms/medi ... 08_04e.pdf

As for a block material, CRC would not practical and GRE (graphite-reinforced-epoxy) would still require a metallic liner. I would also be suspect of how well the graphite fibers held up to galvanic corrosion in the presence of coolant.

The only composite material successfully used in cylinder blocks is the application of aluminum-SiC MMC's as a liner material in some high end motorcycle engines.

Regards,
Terry
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

gringo
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Re: Carbon Block?

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Engine heat - biggest problem for composites.
Generally resins lose their mechanical properties quite drastically at combustion temperatures, and can't even get rid of it. So temperature control gets even harder, which brings us to another problem:-
1) you want to convert as much of fuel as possible to force on piston, so try to lose as little heat as possible - reduce chamber surface area, reduce contact time, etc. but also raise surface temperature (within limits) BUT -
2) you want to maintain structure temperatures within reason also, so use cooling. Oil-cool pistons, water-cool heads & cylinders, use aluminum as conducts better than cast iron, etc.
How? That's where ceramic coatings come in - low conductivity reduces heat-flow from gas to metal, but low heat capacity also means surface temp comes down quickly before next compression, avoiding pre-ignition, etc.
I guess ceramics could be classed as composites (non-metallic) but most uses for CRFC (resin-based composites) so far have to be low-temperature and non-structural.

noname
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Re: Carbon Block?

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gringo wrote:Engine heat - biggest problem for composites. (...) That's where ceramic coatings come in - low conductivity reduces heat-flow from gas to metal, but low heat capacity also means surface temp comes down quickly before next compression, avoiding pre-ignition, etc.
I guess ceramics could be classed as composites (non-metallic) but most uses for CRFC (resin-based composites) so far have to be low-temperature and non-structural.
you are right, they are classified as composites. example below.

http://www.compositesworld.com/news/ge- ... gines.aspx

w/out coatings (and advanced cooling) jet engines and industrial gas turbines would not exist - hot section would melt within seconds.

Giblet
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Re: Carbon Block?

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The block would not only have to handle the heat and stress of the engine functioning, but also act as a stressed part of the chassis.
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010010011010
010010011010
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Re: Carbon Block?

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hi,

do f1 engines still use piston rings? do they not increase engine friction alot?

Belatti
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Re: Carbon Block?

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010010011010 wrote:hi,

do f1 engines still use piston rings? do they not increase engine friction alot?
so do wings
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Mikey_s
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Re: Carbon Block?

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010010011010 wrote:hi,

do f1 engines still use piston rings? do they not increase engine friction alot?
The answer is, of course, yes.. but they seal the periphery of the piston and therefore it's an acceptable compromise.
Mike

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ringo
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Re: Carbon Block?

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riff_raff wrote:CRC (carbon-reinforced-carbon) has actually been tried as a piston material. It's benefit would be that CRC has low density, high stiffness, high strength, and excellent thermal stability. The drawback of CRC (as a piston material) is that it is very abrasive, has very low thermal conductivity, is very difficult to fabricate, and oxidizes at temps above about 1000degF.

http://www.schunk-group.com/sixcms/medi ... 08_04e.pdf

As for a block material, CRC would not practical and GRE (graphite-reinforced-epoxy) would still require a metallic liner. I would also be suspect of how well the graphite fibers held up to galvanic corrosion in the presence of coolant.

The only composite material successfully used in cylinder blocks is the application of aluminum-SiC MMC's as a liner material in some high end motorcycle engines.

Regards,
Terry
What is the interaction between CRC or CRP and engine oil?
A carbon block seems like it could work with metal composite liners. And if it cannot work, maybe a mostly carbon cylinder head can be used, since the head constitutes most of the height of an engine, it would really benefit the height of the COG.
Carbon head, Metal valves and metal chambers.
Carbon con rods seem feasible too.
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