Ferrari F14T

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Harsha
Harsha
12
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:35 pm

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

turbof1 wrote:
Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
prince wrote:
Uh.... I feel they have gone backwards if anything, from 2013 to 2o14. When the winter tests started back in February, I did raised this point that F14T is lagging behind in terms of the frontal grip as was evident from their BASIC looking FW, whereas Merc and RB came with, essentially a step forward from where they left in 2013 as they had carried forward their previous FWs. Throughout the year, there wasn't much that happened on F14T FW and I feel that is why Kimi kept losing feel for the front and looked so ordinary.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 84#p479984

I remember how W01 to W03 cars were criticized for having poor front wings and how everyone got excited when they finally saw a 5 element front wing on W04. Generally, front wings have been a mirror to the rear grip that a car has, so that shows F14T's woes.
So you have deduced that the F14T was lacking in front grip because their front wing looks basic?? Seriously?

Although the wing in your opinion looks basic, I linked to a detailed analysis which clearly details exactly how complex the front wing really is. I'm trying not to be rude here, but looks does not determine the aerodynamic effectiveness of a front wing or any other part for that matter.
(Thanks for linking to my analysis, Crucial!)

The wing looks very deceptive. Just taking a glance at it makes you think it is simple. When I started to work on the drawing, I thought it to be a walk through the park. I was wrong, it is infact quite complex indeed. The mainplane for instance has although being rather contineous a very complex shape, created to utilise ground effect to the fullest.

I also believe Ferrari is actually the only team to use 7 elements in front of the wheel. Red Bull and Mercedes only use 6. Given each element adds a lot of complexity, I don't think the notion of the ferrari wing being simple stands.

It is perhaps true that Ferrari doesn't choose the solutions from mercedes or red bull. Fact is, this probably works very well for them.

I do confess the lack of updates on the wing is worrying; my general impression of the season is that front wings change according to the amount of downforce is clawed back. Just changing the AoA doesn't cut it anymore since this could lead to all sort of stalling issues and changes the airflow structures. Nowadays if a front wing needs to create more downforce beyond a certain treshold, it needs a redesign. Mercedes did it, Red Bull in a lesser manner, mclaren certainly did. Ferrari did only once with an additional element in the main plane, although probably because they did drop development fairly early in favour of next season.
i read in this same forum stating that ferrari has more or less producing same downforce as Redbull was but getting pegged back due to very poor PU. Do you think thats also having a bit of share on lack of wing development as adding more Downforce with out lack of grunt would only make them even more vulnerable. Even before stopping development for 2015

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

Yes that's very much possible. Though also doubtful since they are claimed to run more rear wing then the others.

Believe it or not, but finding more downforce by redesigning the wing isn't that difficult. However, you need to have the same amount of downforce at the rear. If not you'll get oversteer and it simply ruins the rear tyres.
#AeroFrodo

Harsha
Harsha
12
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:35 pm

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

turbof1 wrote:Yes that's very much possible. Though also doubtful since they are claimed to run more rear wing then the others.

Believe it or not, but finding more downforce by redesigning the wing isn't that difficult. However, you need to have the same amount of downforce at the rear. If not you'll get oversteer and it simply ruins the rear tyres.
I think Ferrari major issue is their engine not only with the Lack of grunt but with the over weight which made weight distribution worse and producing inconsistent high downforce.(as i read ) what do you think is this one of main reasons for the lack of consistency on production of downforce or is there any thing else?

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:36 pm
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

That's a question I think even Ferrari engineers will have difficulties to answer. Could be engine power, could be weight distribution, could be correlation issues they are having for years now. Most likely it'll be a mix of all of that.

The one thing that does strike me is the rear end instability. Could either be too much torque or not enough enough rear grip. But the question then is: are we looking at the cause or at the symptoms? I'd like to think its the latter.
#AeroFrodo

Harsha
Harsha
12
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:35 pm

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

turbof1 wrote:That's a question I think even Ferrari engineers will have difficulties to answer. Could be engine power, could be weight distribution, could be correlation issues they are having for years now. Most likely it'll be a mix of all of that.

The one thing that does strike me is the rear end instability. Could either be too much torque or not enough enough rear grip. But the question then is: are we looking at the cause or at the symptoms? I'd like to think its the latter.
It could be both as the car is sliding every where , Its much much worse in Australia but its a bit better by Brazil. About the symptoms i think ferrari tried every thing in software mapping but they didn't progressed ahead like renault does in terms of restricting the torque with software
i feel the car has very good capability as it has good basis to work but it has lot of issues to fix

User avatar
Blackout
1563
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

Some pics of the 2014 Ferrari intercooler here (Marussia) http://cagp.auctionhq.net/view-auctions ... 3Fpage%3D6

Image

Why do these airboxes have two separated channels? and different airfilters?
Image

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:47 am
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

I think the compressor runs in reverse, air exits in the middle and enters via the perimeter inlets fed by the split airbox

OO7
OO7
171
Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:49 pm

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

scarbs wrote:I think the compressor runs in reverse, air exits in the middle and enters via the perimeter inlets fed by the split airbox
Will you be bidding on any of those items scarbs? :wink:

scarbs
scarbs
393
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:47 am
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

Blaze1 wrote:
scarbs wrote:I think the compressor runs in reverse, air exits in the middle and enters via the perimeter inlets fed by the split airbox
Will you be bidding on any of those items scarbs? :wink:
Shhh. ....

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
555
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

Costly and cumbersome design. For what purpose? Air to air is so much cheaper and simpler for a low volume design. Look on all those carbon bits and tube fittings! Imagine puyting that rat nest together...
Their claimed low drag aero advantage of running air to water to air never even materialized in 2014 and unsurprisingly the fastest cars on the straights were all air to air intercooled. So... Air to air does not take up that much frontal area as we are lead to think...
πŸ–οΈβœŒοΈβ˜οΈπŸ‘€πŸ‘ŒβœοΈπŸŽπŸ†πŸ™

β˜„οΈ Myth of the five suns. β˜„οΈ

β˜€οΈβ˜€οΈβ˜€οΈβ˜€οΈβ˜€οΈ
LxVxFxHxN

User avatar
ringo
228
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

They also have additional water pumps to move around the hot water. Not a good design path.
It seems that the compressor does run in reverse as scarbs said. And it's funny how management can push for a arrogant philosophy that has a domino effect on almost every part of that engine. It's like ferrari need to build a whole new power unit!
I wont be surprised if that compressor is not as efficient as those that are on the other engines.
For Sure!!

User avatar
Blackout
1563
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

But the best car in 2014 is water-air cooled and it uses a similar concept as Ferrari. Its intercooler is just placed 'in' the monocoque not in the V6's V.
The purposes are obvious IMO; amongst them is the extremely short distance between intercooler and compressor.
scarbs wrote:I think the compressor runs in reverse, air exits in the middle and enters via the perimeter inlets fed by the split airbox
:idea: the Ferrari PU is definitely bold.

User avatar
ringo
228
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

I am open to the idea of the mercedes works team using Water to Air, but i am not so certain to declare that is the case.
They can still have an air to air intercooler. I just haven't seen solid evidence that they are using a water system.
All their customers more or less have the same package, with Williams having the same level of power.
For Sure!!

User avatar
dren
226
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

Blackout wrote:But the best car in 2014 is water-air cooled and it uses a similar concept as Ferrari. Its intercooler is just placed 'in' the monocoque not in the V6's V.
The purposes are obvious IMO; amongst them is the extremely short distance between intercooler and compressor.
scarbs wrote:I think the compressor runs in reverse, air exits in the middle and enters via the perimeter inlets fed by the split airbox
:idea: the Ferrari PU is definitely bold.
I really liked the design of the Ferrari system. Very compact. It wasn't the best PU, but it certainly was interesting. And it sounds like it produced a good amount of peak power from what Scarbs has stated.
Honda!

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
555
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari F14T

Post

Blackout wrote:But the best car in 2014 is water-air cooled and it uses a similar concept as Ferrari. Its intercooler is just placed 'in' the monocoque not in the V6's V.
The purposes are obvious IMO; amongst them is the extremely short distance between intercooler and compressor.
scarbs wrote:I think the compressor runs in reverse, air exits in the middle and enters via the perimeter inlets fed by the split airbox
:idea: the Ferrari PU is definitely bold.
The type of intercooler Mercedes uses has not yet been confirmed. We only know that all of their customerd are air to air. It is belived to be water cooled.. But with their compressor locsted where it is, right beside the radiators, it would be so much easier to pipe an air to air intercooler. Maybe we can get visual confirmation this year.
πŸ–οΈβœŒοΈβ˜οΈπŸ‘€πŸ‘ŒβœοΈπŸŽπŸ†πŸ™

β˜„οΈ Myth of the five suns. β˜„οΈ

β˜€οΈβ˜€οΈβ˜€οΈβ˜€οΈβ˜€οΈ
LxVxFxHxN