Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
pb6797
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Stu wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:33 pm

However Mercedes (Hamilton) will only do maybe 2 (maximum 3) either the super-duper ‘Brazil’ unit turned up to 11.
I really hope that engine usage doesn’t push them past the budget cap….
Engines don't fall under the budget cap so no worries there.

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Stu
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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pb6797 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:29 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:33 pm

However Mercedes (Hamilton) will only do maybe 2 (maximum 3) either the super-duper ‘Brazil’ unit turned up to 11.
I really hope that engine usage doesn’t push them past the budget cap….
Engines don't fall under the budget cap so no worries there.
Are you sure? Can stomper teams have to pay ‘x’ million dollars for engines, based in 3-4 per year, how can that not be a part of the operating budget of a team. A ‘works’ teams must be equivalating with that usage, surely?
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

pb6797
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Stu wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:32 pm
pb6797 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:29 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:33 pm

However Mercedes (Hamilton) will only do maybe 2 (maximum 3) either the super-duper ‘Brazil’ unit turned up to 11.
I really hope that engine usage doesn’t push them past the budget cap….
Engines don't fall under the budget cap so no worries there.
Are you sure? Can stomper teams have to pay ‘x’ million dollars for engines, based in 3-4 per year, how can that not be a part of the operating budget of a team. A ‘works’ teams must be equivalating with that usage, surely?
Mercedes High Performance Power (i.e. the engine manufacturer) is separate from Mercedes F1 team so effectively even Mercedes are a customer (with the fixed-cost associated with the contract for engine supply), but here:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-co ... 7/4982647/

You can see engine supply costs are excluded from the cost cap anyway.

mzso
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Stu wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:32 pm
pb6797 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:29 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:33 pm

However Mercedes (Hamilton) will only do maybe 2 (maximum 3) either the super-duper ‘Brazil’ unit turned up to 11.
I really hope that engine usage doesn’t push them past the budget cap….
Engines don't fall under the budget cap so no worries there.
Are you sure? Can stomper teams have to pay ‘x’ million dollars for engines, based in 3-4 per year, how can that not be a part of the operating budget of a team. A ‘works’ teams must be equivalating with that usage, surely?
Good question. I guess someone would need to work their way through the FIA regulations for an answer.
Maybe they're just not part of the budget cap, just like engine development. So works teams burn money on developing engines, meanwhile partners only spend on buying them.

He claimed it's not part of the "budget cap" not "budget", obviously something that costs money need to bey paid for.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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While customer engines payments have been capped at $15m, engines are excluded from budget cap. Accounting for uncapped items the leading team’s budgets will probably be $100m higher than the official cap figure.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Fia has too many garbage and pu side is one of them.
There should be budget cap for development expense for pu too,for current teams but not for new comers until their engine performance match with current ones.
there should be pu usage restriction for every team affects works and costumer teams in same way. While costumer team using lower mode to finish season with less expense, works team must not use 6-7. this also breake competition. ( Fia's main objective must be keep competition close with affordable budget )
for example if pu supplier engine fails before expected life manufacturer should supply new one without cost to costumer or with shared cost. Maybe proportional according to failure reason.
Engine change penalty also wrong. 1st 5 place, 2nd 10 place way is much better.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The power unit usage and restrictions rules are the same for every team being power unit customer team or power unit works team, they affect both in the same way.

djones
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mercedes have pulled a smart move with the engine change.

To now start talking about budget caps or increased penalties for engine changes is pretty hilarious, given how many engines Honda have gone through in recent years. Indeed some of the rules were relaxed with Honda in mind.

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etusch
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djones wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:47 pm
Mercedes have pulled a smart move with the engine change.

To now start talking about budget caps or increased penalties for engine changes is pretty hilarious, given how many engines Honda have gone through in recent years. Indeed some of the rules were relaxed with Honda in mind.
You are very close to what I am trying to say generally. So what do you think about engine freeze and keeping it alive when you see mercs are 1 sec faster ? What about doing nothing with oil burning when it is a breach of fuel flow limit in reality? Even if it were not how Fia didn't ban to keep competition close ?
It is not works for you and you miss that but I talked about new comers and rules for them to allow them catch which was not case for honda. By the way how much honda benefited from this engine change rule ?

djones
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:09 pm
djones wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:47 pm
Mercedes have pulled a smart move with the engine change.

To now start talking about budget caps or increased penalties for engine changes is pretty hilarious, given how many engines Honda have gone through in recent years. Indeed some of the rules were relaxed with Honda in mind.
You are very close to what I am trying to say generally. So what do you think about engine freeze and keeping it alive when you see mercs are 1 sec faster ? What about doing nothing with oil burning when it is a breach of fuel flow limit in reality? Even if it were not how Fia didn't ban to keep competition close ?
It is not works for you and you miss that but I talked about new comers and rules for them to allow them catch which was not case for honda. By the way how much honda benefited from this engine change rule ?
All the engine manufacturers could have had the same development time and resources. If one chose to start sooner or put more money into it, that is just how the game works.

Even if they all started at the same time and with the same money, one will do a better job.

The engines will never be equal in F1. The only way to make them equal is to have one independent engine manufacturer.

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etusch
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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djones wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:18 pm
etusch wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:09 pm
djones wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:47 pm
Mercedes have pulled a smart move with the engine change.

To now start talking about budget caps or increased penalties for engine changes is pretty hilarious, given how many engines Honda have gone through in recent years. Indeed some of the rules were relaxed with Honda in mind.
You are very close to what I am trying to say generally. So what do you think about engine freeze and keeping it alive when you see mercs are 1 sec faster ? What about doing nothing with oil burning when it is a breach of fuel flow limit in reality? Even if it were not how Fia didn't ban to keep competition close ?
It is not works for you and you miss that but I talked about new comers and rules for them to allow them catch which was not case for honda. By the way how much honda benefited from this engine change rule ?
All the engine manufacturers could have had the same development time and resources. If one chose to start sooner or put more money into it, that is just how the game works.

Even if they all started at the same time and with the same money, one will do a better job.

The engines will never be equal in F1. The only way to make them equal is to have one independent engine manufacturer.
You are working very hard not to understand. This is not leman24 which has different series race at one time. If they allow to develop teams who are back, they can catch and will be different story but guess what. Only one engine is manufacturing in england.

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DutchPanther
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https://soymotor.com/noticias/honda-qui ... udi-992649
Honda is considering a 5th Engine for Max in Abu Dhabi apparently.
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By @f1debrief
Image
Image

Roostfactor
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Great pics! Much larger intake. Wonder how much it will impact the other cooling duct.
Something is planned for extra airflow from the looks of it.

flmkane
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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etusch wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 2:09 pm
djones wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 1:47 pm
Mercedes have pulled a smart move with the engine change.

To now start talking about budget caps or increased penalties for engine changes is pretty hilarious, given how many engines Honda have gone through in recent years. Indeed some of the rules were relaxed with Honda in mind.
You are very close to what I am trying to say generally. So what do you think about engine freeze and keeping it alive when you see mercs are 1 sec faster ? What about doing nothing with oil burning when it is a breach of fuel flow limit in reality? Even if it were not how Fia didn't ban to keep competition close ?
It is not works for you and you miss that but I talked about new comers and rules for them to allow them catch which was not case for honda. By the way how much honda benefited from this engine change rule ?
Engine freeze with a merc advantage happened before and it was a HILARIOUS disaster.

It was in 2014. They froze the new hybrid engines before they even raced and as we recall, Merc was at best 3 sec a lap faster. Their domination hasn't ended to this day.