Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:10 am
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

GhostF1 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:31 am
J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:43 am
Owen.C93 wrote:
Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:21 pm
That type of gasket is usually for gasses of some kind. But I don’t see it being legal to interact with the combustion chamber.
EGR, it could be, looks like hot gas has been flowing - by the metal temp-tone?
Is it not being sourced from the compressor side though? Exhaust turbine is at the rear of the engine. So I'm sceptical that's EGR at all.

Could this not be a newer variant of that Secondary Air Bypass thing they use. Instead of wastegates to atmosphere, excess boost pressure is dumped into the cylinders that are not firing to spin the turbo/H for a burst of regen?
Who knows which way the gases are moving through that 'log-manifold, & going to/from what unit'?

Certainly the colour-toning would suggest it is quite hot, & it is on the exhaust side of the mill...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

hkbruin
hkbruin
6
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:58 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Honda/RBP once again shows they are the crème of the crop when it comes to engine performance and reliability. Proud to see how far they’ve come from the depths of hell to the peak of the mountain. With grid penalties on the horizon for Ferrari, the gap in the championship will continue to grow. As a life-long Honda fan I’m on Cloud9!!

User avatar
ispano6
121
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Remember the musings of Honda struggling to regain back the horsepower due to E10 fuel? Sure they had early gremlins this year but made a good recovery understanding the issues.

It would be nice to see improvements and upgrades for the ERS and battery too.

I hope they have success at Suzuka this year and maybe even have a chance to witness a win there. Singapore too, it's been a while since Asia has had a F1 race for the Honda fans.

User avatar
Wazari
604
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:49 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

ispano6 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:14 pm
Remember the musings of Honda struggling to regain back the horsepower due to E10 fuel? Sure they had early gremlins this year but made a good recovery understanding the issues.

It would be nice to see improvements and upgrades for the ERS and battery too.

I hope they have success at Suzuka this year and maybe even have a chance to witness a win there. Singapore too, it's been a while since Asia has had a F1 race for the Honda fans.
There will be a significant upgrade to the ERS system after summer break and that along with a major chassis upgrade about the same time should bode well for RBR in the second half of the season.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

Alexf1
Alexf1
8
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Wazari wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:11 am
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:14 pm
Remember the musings of Honda struggling to regain back the horsepower due to E10 fuel? Sure they had early gremlins this year but made a good recovery understanding the issues.

It would be nice to see improvements and upgrades for the ERS and battery too.

I hope they have success at Suzuka this year and maybe even have a chance to witness a win there. Singapore too, it's been a while since Asia has had a F1 race for the Honda fans.
There will be a significant upgrade to the ERS system after summer break and that along with a major chassis upgrade about the same time should bode well for RBR in the second half of the season.
That's very good news! Since the ES itself had a major update last year at Spa I'm guessing the update will mostly be about improving regeneration efficiency of MGU-K and heat control of ES so max. charging and discharging rate is improved. Hope it will all be 100% reliable from the start cause looking at Ferrari powerunit issues can take away a lot of points. Otherwise I assume it's possible to only homologate the new spec ERS hardware just before sep 1st but continue with a 3rd unit of the current ERS and introduce the new one next year (or introduce it but not use the most agressive software mode just yet)

Mansell89
Mansell89
9
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Wazari wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:11 am
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:14 pm
Remember the musings of Honda struggling to regain back the horsepower due to E10 fuel? Sure they had early gremlins this year but made a good recovery understanding the issues.

It would be nice to see improvements and upgrades for the ERS and battery too.

I hope they have success at Suzuka this year and maybe even have a chance to witness a win there. Singapore too, it's been a while since Asia has had a F1 race for the Honda fans.
There will be a significant upgrade to the ERS system after summer break and that along with a major chassis upgrade about the same time should bode well for RBR in the second half of the season.
Hey Wazari,

Thank you so much for your contributions and insight over the years- it’s been wonderful.

Hope you don’t mind me asking this question in this thread, but may I ask:

1) Have there been obvious differences in the way Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have collaborated with Honda during this relationship, when compared to how McLaren approached things in 2015,2016, and 2017?

2) Do you have a feel for how Honda views McLaren after the 3 year collaboration- is there ever likely to be room for a reconciliation if the opportunity presented itself later down the line in due course? Or was significant damage done to the relationship? Is there a negative view of Fernando Alonso for example?


Apologies that it’s not engine-technical per se but more akin to the working relationships between engine suppliers and their team partners.

User avatar
Wazari
604
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:49 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mansell89 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:23 am

Hey Wazari,

Thank you so much for your contributions and insight over the years- it’s been wonderful.

Hope you don’t mind me asking this question in this thread, but may I ask:

1) Have there been obvious differences in the way Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have collaborated with Honda during this relationship, when compared to how McLaren approached things in 2015,2016, and 2017?

2) Do you have a feel for how Honda views McLaren after the 3 year collaboration- is there ever likely to be room for a reconciliation if the opportunity presented itself later down the line in due course? Or was significant damage done to the relationship? Is there a negative view of Fernando Alonso for example?


Apologies that it’s not engine-technical per se but more akin to the working relationships between engine suppliers and their team partners.
I am pretty sure I have written about this before. The relationship with McLaren was toxic from the start IMO. I saw the written correspondence between the two parties in the beginning and Honda must have been so desperate to get back into F1. The overall atmosphere was that of McLaren saying we are doing you a huge favor, this is what we want right now. Honda made a mistake giving in and rushing into the racing scene. The relationship with RBR and Torro Rosso was more of "thanks for providing us with a PU, what can we do to make it work?"

I think the whole McLaren thing is water under the bridge. Key executives change, TP's move on, etc. Was there damage done at the time? Very much yes, but time has a tendency to heal. People in F1 circles know not to pay much attention to what Alonso says so again water under the bridge.
“If Honda does not race, there is no Honda.”

“Success represents the 1% of your work which results from the 99% that is called failure.”

-- Honda Soichiro

User avatar
Big Tea
91
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Wazari wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:16 pm
Mansell89 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:23 am

Hey Wazari,

Thank you so much for your contributions and insight over the years- it’s been wonderful.

Hope you don’t mind me asking this question in this thread, but may I ask:

1) Have there been obvious differences in the way Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have collaborated with Honda during this relationship, when compared to how McLaren approached things in 2015,2016, and 2017?

2) Do you have a feel for how Honda views McLaren after the 3 year collaboration- is there ever likely to be room for a reconciliation if the opportunity presented itself later down the line in due course? Or was significant damage done to the relationship? Is there a negative view of Fernando Alonso for example?


Apologies that it’s not engine-technical per se but more akin to the working relationships between engine suppliers and their team partners.
I am pretty sure I have written about this before. The relationship with McLaren was toxic from the start IMO. I saw the written correspondence between the two parties in the beginning and Honda must have been so desperate to get back into F1. The overall atmosphere was that of McLaren saying we are doing you a huge favor, this is what we want right now. Honda made a mistake giving in and rushing into the racing scene. The relationship with RBR and Torro Rosso was more of "thanks for providing us with a PU, what can we do to make it work?"

I think the whole McLaren thing is water under the bridge. Key executives change, TP's move on, etc. Was there damage done at the time? Very much yes, but time has a tendency to heal. People in F1 circles know not to pay much attention to what Alonso says so again water under the bridge.
(edited sorry, messed up the quotes)

If you ever produce a book, please put me on your pre order list.
I always look forward to your posts.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Roostfactor
Roostfactor
11
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:50 am
Location: Texas

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:33 pm
Wazari wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:16 pm
Mansell89 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:23 am

Hey Wazari,

Thank you so much for your contributions and insight over the years- it’s been wonderful.

Hope you don’t mind me asking this question in this thread, but may I ask:

1) Have there been obvious differences in the way Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have collaborated with Honda during this relationship, when compared to how McLaren approached things in 2015,2016, and 2017?

2) Do you have a feel for how Honda views McLaren after the 3 year collaboration- is there ever likely to be room for a reconciliation if the opportunity presented itself later down the line in due course? Or was significant damage done to the relationship? Is there a negative view of Fernando Alonso for example?


Apologies that it’s not engine-technical per se but more akin to the working relationships between engine suppliers and their team partners.
I am pretty sure I have written about this before. The relationship with McLaren was toxic from the start IMO. I saw the written correspondence between the two parties in the beginning and Honda must have been so desperate to get back into F1. The overall atmosphere was that of McLaren saying we are doing you a huge favor, this is what we want right now. Honda made a mistake giving in and rushing into the racing scene. The relationship with RBR and Torro Rosso was more of "thanks for providing us with a PU, what can we do to make it work?"

I think the whole McLaren thing is water under the bridge. Key executives change, TP's move on, etc. Was there damage done at the time? Very much yes, but time has a tendency to heal. People in F1 circles know not to pay much attention to what Alonso says so again water under the bridge.
(edited sorry, messed up the quotes)

If you ever produce a book, please put me on your pre order list.
I always look forward to your posts.
I'll be #2!

DR30
DR30
0
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:23 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Roostfactor wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:48 am
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:33 pm
Wazari wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:16 pm

I am pretty sure I have written about this before. The relationship with McLaren was toxic from the start IMO. I saw the written correspondence between the two parties in the beginning and Honda must have been so desperate to get back into F1. The overall atmosphere was that of McLaren saying we are doing you a huge favor, this is what we want right now. Honda made a mistake giving in and rushing into the racing scene. The relationship with RBR and Torro Rosso was more of "thanks for providing us with a PU, what can we do to make it work?"

I think the whole McLaren thing is water under the bridge. Key executives change, TP's move on, etc. Was there damage done at the time? Very much yes, but time has a tendency to heal. People in F1 circles know not to pay much attention to what Alonso says so again water under the bridge.
(edited sorry, messed up the quotes)

If you ever produce a book, please put me on your pre order list.
I always look forward to your posts.
I'll be #2!
I'll be #3

User avatar
ispano6
121
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my playseat

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Wazari wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:11 am
ispano6 wrote:
Sun Jun 12, 2022 5:14 pm
Remember the musings of Honda struggling to regain back the horsepower due to E10 fuel? Sure they had early gremlins this year but made a good recovery understanding the issues.

It would be nice to see improvements and upgrades for the ERS and battery too.

I hope they have success at Suzuka this year and maybe even have a chance to witness a win there. Singapore too, it's been a while since Asia has had a F1 race for the Honda fans.
There will be a significant upgrade to the ERS system after summer break and that along with a major chassis upgrade about the same time should bode well for RBR in the second half of the season.
Like Hkbruin said it would be great if Honda comes out with a car that showcases its F1 tech especially considering Asaki-san mentioned that the know how from F1 battery development will be of benefit to it's future products. Hopefully the battery upgrade takes their carbon nanotube tech and weight reduction to the next level.

hkbruin
hkbruin
6
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:58 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

If Honda does introduce a new ES with less weight, it doesn’t go against the Red Bull team’s cost cap does it? Since there was a certain cost associated for every kg shed floating around, would that be a free upgrade?

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
34
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Power unit is out of cost gap.

Alexf1
Alexf1
8
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:52 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

hkbruin wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:16 am
If Honda does introduce a new ES with less weight, it doesn’t go against the Red Bull team’s cost cap does it? Since there was a certain cost associated for every kg shed floating around, would that be a free upgrade?
You're right I think. Drivetrain parts (which the battery is part of) are indeed excluded from the cost cap. A drivetrain development which leads to a weight reduction will cost Red Bull powertrains money as they pay for technology as of this year but not money from the budget cap. As of the budget cap the remainder of the original bigger budget simply has shifted to RBPT.

Mansell89
Mansell89
9
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Wazari wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:16 pm
Mansell89 wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:23 am

Hey Wazari,

Thank you so much for your contributions and insight over the years- it’s been wonderful.

Hope you don’t mind me asking this question in this thread, but may I ask:

1) Have there been obvious differences in the way Red Bull and Alpha Tauri have collaborated with Honda during this relationship, when compared to how McLaren approached things in 2015,2016, and 2017?

2) Do you have a feel for how Honda views McLaren after the 3 year collaboration- is there ever likely to be room for a reconciliation if the opportunity presented itself later down the line in due course? Or was significant damage done to the relationship? Is there a negative view of Fernando Alonso for example?


Apologies that it’s not engine-technical per se but more akin to the working relationships between engine suppliers and their team partners.
I am pretty sure I have written about this before. The relationship with McLaren was toxic from the start IMO. I saw the written correspondence between the two parties in the beginning and Honda must have been so desperate to get back into F1. The overall atmosphere was that of McLaren saying we are doing you a huge favor, this is what we want right now. Honda made a mistake giving in and rushing into the racing scene. The relationship with RBR and Torro Rosso was more of "thanks for providing us with a PU, what can we do to make it work?"

I think the whole McLaren thing is water under the bridge. Key executives change, TP's move on, etc. Was there damage done at the time? Very much yes, but time has a tendency to heal. People in F1 circles know not to pay much attention to what Alonso says so again water under the bridge.
Thank you so much Wazari- appreciate it so much and as the others have said- il be in line for the book too! 😂

Honda seriously impressive this season in the Red Bull- must be awesome to enjoy it.

Take care and thank you