Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
AR3-GP
AR3-GP
60
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:05 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:07 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:52 pm


That's a great observation! It's likely Scarbs just has it backwards. Intake connects to the axial port of the compressor. Intercooler is connected to the tangential exit. Quite frankly the image looks similar to the Mercedes/Renault/Honda. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be a split turbo.


So why can't someone just confront Mattia lol? They give thousands of interviews with useless questions. Ask him. Split turbo or no?
Scarbs said he isn't saying
Well, I mentioned this already several times last season: From the concept the split turbo is 15% more efficient than the normal turbo.
So either I am right with everyone now on split or I am still very puzzled how they can find this power.
The power isn't related to the split turbo, it's related to their combustion process. The split turbo just allows for extremely efficient packaging (which benefits the dynamics), as well as a small turbo efficiency benefit.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
60
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

mzso wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:32 pm
Dr. Acula wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:44 pm
The way he connected the compressor, it would actually blow air out of the airbox. The airbox needs to be connected to the "front" of the compressor, not to its radial exit.
Maybe it works the opposite way to expectations? :)
Extremely unlikely. The drawing is just mistaken.

PhillipM
PhillipM
318
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Dr. Acula wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:44 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:05 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:50 pm
I also could be quite wrong :wtf:

Scarbs explanation does not explain the tubes connected to the plenum at the back of the engine.
Well, there's something strange with Scarbs drawing anyway. The way he connected the compressor, it would actually blow air out of the airbox. The airbox needs to be connected to the "front" of the compressor, not to its radial exit.
it is connected to the front, the radial outlet is blowing down straight into the chargecooler.

vorticism
vorticism
78
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

If it is split turbo, I was trying to make sense of why the airbox is so far back. Also, why there seems to be no plenum elbow ahead of the engine, where you might expect the compressor inlet to be. Maybe they've flipped the compressor around. They have many seasons of experience running the inlet over the compressor shaft.

Image

The other explanation is that it is not split turbo, the compressor is still at the back, and the intercooler position might have been changed.

hurril
hurril
54
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

ryaan2904 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:28 pm
hurril wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:31 am
ryaan2904 wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:38 am


Ferrari never had air-air intercooler??
They did have an extra one that was fed immediately after the compressor outlet. It was a triangularly shaped thing situated right above it [the turbo.]
That was the radiator, the only centerline piece of cooling they had.
No it was not. You can clearly see in pictures that it is an air-to-air-cooler and it's been up for discussion before.

basti313
basti313
25
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:52 pm
basti313 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:05 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:07 pm


Scarbs said he isn't saying
Well, I mentioned this already several times last season: From the concept the split turbo is 15% more efficient than the normal turbo.
So either I am right with everyone now on split or I am still very puzzled how they can find this power.
The power isn't related to the split turbo, it's related to their combustion process. The split turbo just allows for extremely efficient packaging (which benefits the dynamics), as well as a small turbo efficiency benefit.
No, not in reality in an F1 car. The car is always to some degree cooling limited in all parts. Here the issue is charge air cooler. With the split turbo the charge air is much colder with still a smaller intercooler.
So you are right, it is packing, but in the end the intercooler is limited in packing and going into it with colder air (hot exhaust side in the back!) is giving you more power.

The bigger point is the exhaust: You release straight to the back with much better routing and a shorter pipe, which generates simply more efficiency.

LM10
LM10
102
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:05 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 4:07 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:52 pm


That's a great observation! It's likely Scarbs just has it backwards. Intake connects to the axial port of the compressor. Intercooler is connected to the tangential exit. Quite frankly the image looks similar to the Mercedes/Renault/Honda. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be a split turbo.


So why can't someone just confront Mattia lol? They give thousands of interviews with useless questions. Ask him. Split turbo or no?
Scarbs said he isn't saying
Well, I mentioned this already several times last season: From the concept the split turbo is 15% more efficient than the normal turbo.
So either I am right with everyone now on split or I am still very puzzled how they can find this power.
You sure are after all you’ve claimed before the start of this season. :lol:

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
60
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

basti313 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:49 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:52 pm
basti313 wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:05 pm

Well, I mentioned this already several times last season: From the concept the split turbo is 15% more efficient than the normal turbo.
So either I am right with everyone now on split or I am still very puzzled how they can find this power.
The power isn't related to the split turbo, it's related to their combustion process. The split turbo just allows for extremely efficient packaging (which benefits the dynamics), as well as a small turbo efficiency benefit.
No, not in reality in an F1 car. The car is always to some degree cooling limited in all parts. Here the issue is charge air cooler. With the split turbo the charge air is much colder with still a smaller intercooler.
So you are right, it is packing, but in the end the intercooler is limited in packing and going into it with colder air (hot exhaust side in the back!) is giving you more power.

The bigger point is the exhaust: You release straight to the back with much better routing and a shorter pipe, which generates simply more efficiency.
Someone has posted upthread about how the temperature difference to the charge air is not THAT big for split vs non split. The split turbo is to my knowledge a death by 100 small knives, rather than 1 game changing element.

I am fully onboard with Scarbs based on the images provided.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
60
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

This photo from Mercedes PU is likely what Scarbs was trying to draw on the Ferrari picture. There is a carbon housing on the compressor.

Merc 2015 PU:
Image

vorticism
vorticism
78
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Was trying to figure out why the plenum on the 2022 engine had some unusual shapes. (Apparent on the Albert Fabrega from previous posts.) If you look closely there are non-round shapes. I think they've made the plenum stacks pie/wedge shaped, to make the unit as compact as possible (radially). I also think they've twisted the charge pipe divisions to maximizing runner length vs. available length.

Image

Image

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
507
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Draw it with the intake to the compressor going between the Vee to the back of the engine. I think the turbocharger is still at the back. Hmmm.

I just don't see that compressor inlet pipe making that nasty right angle bend to a comoressor at the front. Can't see it.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

vorticism
vorticism
78
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

That's what they've been doing since 2014 to some degree or another. The air filter roughly in the same location, then forking into a wishbone shape to go down to the compressor inlet. Otherwise that's why I suggest another option of split turbo might be to have a forward placed compressor face backward.

Stu wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:13 am
I was just thinking the same thing, a pair of longitudinal charge coolers would work.
Another alternative is a a ‘semi-split’ turbo with the compressor inside the V. This would compromise the diameter, but if they are using an axial compressor; as opposed to the more conventional radial type, it could work. It still looks as though the oil tank is mounted directly to the front of the engine (visible behind the air pipes).
From FP. Looks like no charge pipes down low, unless they're removed when this photo was taken. Ohterwise any charge pipes routed forward must be in/above the vee, or on the other side of the engine.

Image

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
507
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

vorticism wrote:
Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:31 pm
If it is split turbo, I was trying to make sense of why the airbox is so far back. Also, why there seems to be no plenum elbow ahead of the engine, where you might expect the compressor inlet to be. Maybe they've flipped the compressor around. They have many seasons of experience running the inlet over the compressor shaft.

https://i.imgur.com/rzpiB1f.jpg

The other explanation is that it is not split turbo, the compressor is still at the back, and the intercooler position might have been changed.
I had this concept as well with the compressor sucking from the other direction. I just didn't draw it as you did... but interestingly...

This old Scuderia fans video had it facing the other way as well...



I am now trying to find other compressors like this. I think it would have to be a special case.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

vorticism
vorticism
78
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:20 pm

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Maybe their source rumors are accurate, but the visual aids are not. At 17:20 it shows a volute on the small end of the compressor, and a pancake box with a vertical exit above the large end of the compressor. The intake runners they show afterward are a simplistic version of what teams are using.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
507
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Yup that at 17:20 is was im talking about. Externally it looks too similar to what we see now in 2022. They got insider information from last year. This is definitely an artists imopression but I feel there is some truth to the compressor sucking from the back side even though they got the vanes wrong. Could be an axial compressor protuding forward? Are axial compressors evem allowed?
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||