Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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That in the picture is very near to what I have seen. What I have seen is an enlarged and very clear and detail picture of core tube bundle exactly like that of what Nicolas Carpentiers shows in the bundle inset at right lower of his front engine photo. The micro tube bundle design compactness and lay-out was shown in detail. This was not a drawing, it was an actual photo exactly like that in the Carpentiers inset in the photo but much enlarged photo of the bundle. Have been trying to trace that photo ever since.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:25 pm
and for reference, this is the most likely intercooler design:

https://motorsportmagazine.b-cdn.net/wp ... r.jpg.webp

The inlet faces the rear of the car, and the airflow does a 90 degree turn to exit at the circumference as you can see the intake pipes coming off the Ferrari intercooler at the circumference.

Apparently both Mercedes and Ferrari are using this design.
Thank you for this.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I was not sure the ‘core element’ photo was shown on here, but on here it was on page 398. For more detail ‘’images for core element of reaction engines type of intercooler’’ click on the 4th core element on the right side and scroll down for details.
''the query is how does compressor ingress work'' The most likely to what they are using (way in and out of compressor plus in/out of intercooler) is best depicted in a drawing by vourticism 4th post 07 apr 2022 30:14 page 398.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:41 am
I was not sure the ‘core element’ photo was shown on here, but on here it was on page 398. For more detail ‘’images for core element of reaction engines type of intercooler’’ click on the 4th core element on the right side and scroll down for details.
''the query is how does compressor ingress work'' The most likely to what they are using (way in and out of compressor plus in/out of intercooler) is best depicted in a drawing by vourticism 4th post 07 apr 2022 30:14 page 398.
Thank you Saviour, at least I know what a gugelhupf is as well. :wink:
He is a good sketcher.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Assuming this reation engine intercooler is the intercooler (maybe) and its positioning, just from a rough reckoning I cannot see how it has the size to be effective enough. There is not the room for extra length and it is difficult to see how the diameter can be large enough. Even triple rowed, I doubt it
Is it water/air or air/air? if it is water/ air they would have to have a dedicated water circuit for a lower temperature than the 130C engine circuit; if it is air/air it would have to be much larger to have the needed throughput. And I am not sure of the temperature drop required, but there is a certain luxury in not needing the engine inlet temperature to be as low as would be thought because of the benefit for combustion initiation, I say this quite aware of the risk of autoignition, but these are simply worked out compromises.
I can see how there is room for an intercooler in the vee and a plenum as well though.
That is not to say they dont have two intercoolers of the different types arranged in series. IMHO.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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johnny comelately wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:05 pm
Assuming this reation engine intercooler is the intercooler (maybe) and its positioning, just from a rough reckoning I cannot see how it has the size to be effective enough. There is not the room for extra length and it is difficult to see how the diameter can be large enough. Even triple rowed, I doubt it
Is it water/air or air/air? if it is water/ air they would have to have a dedicated water circuit for a lower temperature than the 130C engine circuit; if it is air/air it would have to be much larger to have the needed throughput. And I am not sure of the temperature drop required, but there is a certain luxury in not needing the engine inlet temperature to be as low as would be thought because of the benefit for combustion initiation, I say this quite aware of the risk of autoignition, but these are simply worked out compromises.
I can see how there is room for an intercooler in the vee and a plenum as well though.
That is not to say they dont have two intercoolers of the different types arranged in series. IMHO.
Intercooler isn't that big. Look at the Renault one:

Image

e36jon
e36jon
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am
Location: California, USA

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Greetings all

In the spirit of 'better late than never' I stumbled across a 2019 Ferrari piston and rod (Below) that is quite a bit different than the 2020 that was posted earlier. The original parts and images are here
https://www.racinghalloffamecollection. ... od-piston/.

Enjoy.

Jon

Image

Found these today, 11/18/2022:

Image

Image

Here's the 2020 piston crown for comparison:

Image

Found new images of the 2020 crown, 11/18/2022:

Image

Image
Last edited by e36jon on Fri Nov 18, 2022 7:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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It is extremely hard to believe that a FERRARI F1 1.6 liter V-6 turbocharged piston and rod will find its way for sale on the internet.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Interesting. There were theories that Ferrari may have been attempting to operate a HCCI engine whereby the spirit of the regulations frowns upon such a technology but ultimately it's quite difficult to prove combustion is not being initiated by a spark. Having to abandon such a technology could have been the agreement with the FIA and the reason they went so far backwards in 2020. They would have had to basically build a spark ignition engine again. That may explain the complete cylinder/piston redesign.

I always thought something like this was likely and more plausible than the very very far fetched fuel flow meter signal interference that was being perpetuated. People really have no clue how difficult something like that would be to achieve.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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e36jon wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:00 pm
Greetings all

In the spirit of 'better late than never' I stumbled across a 2019 Ferrari piston and rod (Below) that is quite a bit different than the 2020 that was posted earlier. The original parts and images are here
https://www.racinghalloffamecollection. ... od-piston/.

Enjoy.

Jon

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/920/yn5hyy.jpg

Here's the 2020 piston crown for comparison:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/972x ... 0AbWJD.jpg
Not from one of the transporters? :wink:
Assuming it is genuine that has just added to the puzzle for the two obvious reasons, chamber volume and piston to valve clearance. From memory one of the challenges has been to keep the chamber at 16cc. That shape makes the affects the MFB having a large squish, but that can be taken care of ATDC.
The bowl gives a very quick burn combined with the TJI. Valve timings next please e36jon

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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''Not from one of the transporters?''. The first one, the one with the ‘bowl’ looks more like its out of an IVECO stralis tractor cursor 13 engine.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:34 pm
''Not from one of the transporters?''. The first one, the one with the ‘bowl’ looks more like its out of an IVECO stralis tractor cursor 13 engine.
The Iveco motor was a diesel no? :o


HCCI.... :wink:

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The IVECO CURSOR 13 engine combustion is initiated by Bosch high pressure injector pump driven by camshaft, while the FERRARI 1.6 turbo engine combustion is initiated by spark plug as per the rules.

e36jon
e36jon
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am
Location: California, USA

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hey gang

I'm not sitting on any additional info for this latest diesel-like piston + rod.

Anecdotally I would say that there seems to be precedent for fairly current hardware getting out into the world. Auction fodder, like this one, is pretty common. I think it has to do with it being pretty high-level folks doing the giving. Are you going to tell the big boss no when he walks in and asks for something for the charity auction? Cart/Indycar have an annual Christmas auction that often has some otherwise unseen bits. I have also seen vendor gifts end up on eBay. Etc. The dyno/lab sample also holds water the teams can create a mountain of parts pretty quickly that don't necessarily have much to do with the actual race engine...

I always appreciate the conversations here. So. Much. Knowledge!

Jon

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I'm not believing the 2020 is correct.

Based on everything I know, it will be a dished piston like a diesel with a spike in the center. This is something Audi played around with back in the Audi diesel LMP engine days and apparently had a significant effect on fuel consumption (documented in RET Issue 100). Wazari here has likened the Honda piston shape to Mt. Fuji with a little crater in the center spike. Put as much stock into that as you want.

Pat Symonds in



also refers to it as "omega piston bowls".

Some other takeaways:

* Thermal Efficiency of 52%
* BSFC 167gms/kw-hr (0.27lbs/hp-hr), occurs at peak power
* 800bhp from 1.6L (then another ~200hp or so from the hybrid unit)
* Lambda 1.3-1.4. Compare that to the DI / spark plug Audi DTM engine which runs at Lambda 1.15-1.38
* Rules limited 18:1 geometric compression ratio. All are at max
* Spark assisted HCCI, which Honda pretty much showed (earlier in the thread)
* They are Miller Cycle engines, with IVC before BDC
* Separate oil circuit for piston oil jets that runs cooler than the other circuits
* Miller Cycle requires very aggressive intake valve opening / closing designs and a lot of boost
* Valve angles low (5-7*), obviously done for squish geometry
* "Omega" piston bowls. Illustration in video helps visualize that
* Modeling from the FIA shows around 5.5bar boost (~80psi or so) and 50% mass fraction burn by 8* ATDC. Lose 1-2% of MFB in the prechamber. Quick combustion from 2-80% MFB and a slowing combustion beyond that. This final 20% with slowing combustion speed is where knock can occur.

The Audi diesel prototypes were also a fuel limited formula, Miller Cycle, and had similar rapid combustion concepts... all a decade plus ago! The F1 engines are essentially spark assisted TJI / HCCI / hybrid diesel like engines.