Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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‘’not one from the transporters”. The bowl size (volume - dia and depth) compered to piston dia as shown in first photo to which will have to be added any clearance volume on top of the piston crown at TDC makes it extremely hard to believe that Anything near a compression ratio of 18:1 is possible to achieve with the known bore and stroke sizes.

wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:19 am
* 800bhp from 1.6L (then another ~200hp or so from the hybrid unit)
The rules only allow for 120kW (161hp) from the hybrid unit. Unless they can turn that DC power into 200hp at the motor output?

Hoffman900
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:57 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:19 am
* 800bhp from 1.6L (then another ~200hp or so from the hybrid unit)
The rules only allow for 120kW (161hp) from the hybrid unit. Unless they can turn that DC power into 200hp at the motor output?
You would have to ask Pat Symmonds.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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wuzak wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:57 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:19 am
* 800bhp from 1.6L (then another ~200hp or so from the hybrid unit)
The rules only allow for 120kW (161hp) from the hybrid unit. Unless they can turn that DC power into 200hp at the motor output?
A physical impossibility. Power does not care about gearboxes because energy is conserved (or rather, you can only lose it through friction. You cannot gain it beyond what is released from the ES).

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:58 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:57 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:19 am
* 800bhp from 1.6L (then another ~200hp or so from the hybrid unit)
The rules only allow for 120kW (161hp) from the hybrid unit. Unless they can turn that DC power into 200hp at the motor output?
You would have to ask Pat Symmonds.

PU peak power ....
800 (say) hp conventionally + 160 hp from K motor action + 40 hp in electric supercharge (no 'backpressure')
EDITED for clarity
that's 800 hp mechanical power + 40 hp mechanical power ('air motor' action - no backpressure) + 160 hp K motoring
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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In electric supercharging mode (when waste-gate/s are open – no backpressure) the ‘H’ is in motor mode and not only not recovering but it is sharing ES power with ‘K’.

johnny comelately
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
In electric supercharging mode (when waste-gate/s are open – no backpressure) the ‘H’ is in motor mode and not only not recovering but it is sharing ES power with ‘K’.
How often are the wastegates open?
Hardly at all is my thought.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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johnny comelately wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:40 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
In electric supercharging mode (when waste-gate/s are open – no backpressure) the ‘H’ is in motor mode and not only not recovering but it is sharing ES power with ‘K’.
How often are the wastegates open?
Hardly at all is my thought.
My guess is they are a lot like what was described for the Audi DTM engine strategy wise (RET Issue 137). They run a fixed boost level (rules restricted) with varying lambda. They found it is faster around a race track this way due to the ability to be back at full power after a shift more quickly than varying boost and a having fixed lambda (like most people do). This was worth 0.17” at Hockenheim. They have graphs showing power % / boost / etc (with the x-axis being time ) showing the improvements during / after a shift. Over this 1" window, average power was 40hp more with constant boost / varying lamda vs. varying boost / constant lambda. They realized more time from driver confidence / driveability.

Combine with being throttled at the turbo (which Audi described on their LMP diesel engines of allowing near infinite lambda control) and the MGUK, I too have a hard time believing they are using the waste gate a lot under load, part throttle / shifts there might be some interesting stuff going on.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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‘’How often are the waste-gate/s open’’. Turbocharger waste-gate/s in formula one are not used to control boost pressure. They are used so as exhaust gases bypass turbine when the compressor is in electric supercharging mode.
Which other racing series other than F1 uses an MGU-H attached to turbocharger?.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:49 pm
‘’How often are the waste-gate/s open’’. Turbocharger waste-gate/s in formula one are not used to control boost pressure. They are used so as exhaust gases bypass turbine when the compressor is in electric supercharging mode.
Which other racing series other than F1 uses an MGU-H attached to turbocharger?.
Fair point

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:49 pm
‘’How often are the waste-gate/s open’’. Turbocharger waste-gate/s in formula one are not used to control boost pressure. They are used so as exhaust gases bypass turbine when the compressor is in electric supercharging mode.
Which other racing series other than F1 uses an MGU-H attached to turbocharger?.
Porsche 919 had an MGU-H

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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“Porsche 919 had an MGU-H”. No. The Porsche 919 had no ‘MGU-H’. Its ERS system consisted of an ‘MGU-K’ on the front axle (60 percent contribution). And a generator (40 percent contribution) driven by an exhaust turbine, which was in turn driven by one half of the exhaust system, while the other half of the exhaust system drove a turbocharger.

wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:18 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:49 pm
‘’How often are the waste-gate/s open’’. Turbocharger waste-gate/s in formula one are not used to control boost pressure. They are used so as exhaust gases bypass turbine when the compressor is in electric supercharging mode.
Which other racing series other than F1 uses an MGU-H attached to turbocharger?.
Porsche 919 had an MGU-H
But not connected to a compressor - it was only driven by a turbine, which was driven by the exhaust from the main turbo.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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johnny comelately wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:40 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
In electric supercharging mode (when waste-gate/s are open – no backpressure) the ‘H’ is in motor mode and not only not recovering but it is sharing ES power with ‘K’.
How often are the wastegates open?
Hardly at all is my thought.

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:19 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:58 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:57 am

The rules only allow for 120kW (161hp) from the hybrid unit. Unless they can turn that DC power into 200hp at the motor output?
You would have to ask Pat Symmonds.

PU peak power ....
800 (say) hp conventionally + 160 hp from K motor action + 40 hp in electric supercharge (no 'backpressure')
EDITED for clarity
that's 800 hp mechanical power + 40 hp mechanical power ('air motor' action - no backpressure) + 160 hp K motoring
saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:42 am
In electric supercharging mode (when waste-gate/s are open – no backpressure) the ‘H’ is in motor mode and not only not recovering but it is sharing ES power with ‘K’.
If the MGUH was driving the turbo to a speed where the backpressure is eliminated, would the wastegates need to be open at all?

Wouldn't it be a case that the MGUH not generating lowers the backpressure such that the ICE makes 40hp more?