Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Mclarensenna
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mclarensenna » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:43 am

ringo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 am
Judging by the race in Canada, the Renault powered cars seem to be able to stay ahead of Honda power, and even retake positions. The engine seems to have more performance unlocked.
i was surprised to see this also on a power track like Canada. It looks like Renault has made a good step on the power unit. Spa and Italy should reveal more.

JordanMugen
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by JordanMugen » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:33 am

ringo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 am
Judging by the race in Canada, the Renault powered cars seem to be able to stay ahead of Honda power, and even retake positions. The engine seems to have more performance unlocked.
Renault power unit does seem strong, however Kvyat with Honda did pass Sainz with Renault for points position also. So the Honda doesn't seem to be that bad.

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PowerandtheGlory » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:41 am

JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:33 am
ringo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 am
Judging by the race in Canada, the Renault powered cars seem to be able to stay ahead of Honda power, and even retake positions. The engine seems to have more performance unlocked.
Renault power unit does seem strong, however Kvyat with Honda did pass Sainz with Renault for points position also. So the Honda doesn't seem to be that bad.
Agreed, Norris cruised past Verstappen very early in the race, before DRS had come in. He might have fried his brakes though, but certainly the Renault engines were a fair match today, Max ended up on fresher tyres by the end and so he restored his position , but overall splitting the redbulls on a power track is a fair reflection of Renault's progress..... and instead we can mention that MERC had the only failure on Stroll's car,,, :D
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

Sieper
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:49 am

PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:41 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:33 am
ringo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 am
Judging by the race in Canada, the Renault powered cars seem to be able to stay ahead of Honda power, and even retake positions. The engine seems to have more performance unlocked.
Renault power unit does seem strong, however Kvyat with Honda did pass Sainz with Renault for points position also. So the Honda doesn't seem to be that bad.
Agreed, Norris cruised past Verstappen very early in the race, before DRS had come in. He might have fried his brakes though, but certainly the Renault engines were a fair match today, Max ended up on fresher tyres by the end and so he restored his position , but overall splitting the redbulls on a power track is a fair reflection of Renault's progress..... and instead we can mention that MERC had the only failure on Stroll's car,,, :D
McLaren ran less wing, helping out massively on the straight, Norris was on softs, giving him much better traction out of the hairpin as Max was on hards (two compounds difference) that for sure were not optimally in the window on lap2. Even with that being the case Norris made a braking error and that allowed Max to slot in, but only just before Norris, giving him an optimal tow. Max post race also said he didn’t want to risk braking out Norris in the chicane, too much risk for little gain. He did overtake Norris a few laps later.

I am not contesting the Renault power gains, but that overtake was due to different reasons then better PU power.

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PowerandtheGlory » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:51 am

Sieper wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:49 am
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:41 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:33 am


Renault power unit does seem strong, however Kvyat with Honda did pass Sainz with Renault for points position also. So the Honda doesn't seem to be that bad.
Agreed, Norris cruised past Verstappen very early in the race, before DRS had come in. He might have fried his brakes though, but certainly the Renault engines were a fair match today, Max ended up on fresher tyres by the end and so he restored his position , but overall splitting the redbulls on a power track is a fair reflection of Renault's progress..... and instead we can mention that MERC had the only failure on Stroll's car,,, :D
McLaren ran less wing, helping out massively on the straight, Norris was on softs, giving him much better traction out of the hairpin as Max was on hards (two compounds difference) that for sure were not optimally in the window on lap2. Even with that being the case Norris made a braking error and that allowed Max to slot in, but only just before Norris, giving him an optimal tow. Max post race also said he didn’t want to risk braking out Norris in the chicane, too much risk for little gain. He did overtake Norris a few laps later.

I am not contesting the Renault power gains, but that overtake was due to different reasons then better PU power.
I'll accept that were obviously looooooads of other factors that you add into the equation.. grip, aero setup, Montreal Groundhogs..... :D
But the result had Renault splitting the Redbulls at the end of the race.
Ricc's 4th place grid slot Quali.
Gasly not catching the Renaults at the end when on the same strategy..
Toro' rosso's performance compared to the Mclaren this weekend....
If you want to exclude the PU completely... i think there is some denial there that the HP of both Renault and Honda are comparable this year... Im not going to say one is 'far' superior to the other...
but Renault has gone from being the Kid being picked on by the other kids in the playground to holding their own.. (Which doesn't help when you had Horner running a PR smear last year...)
We all saw how poorly Haas & Alfa did this weekend despite having probably the best engine for this track.. so it goes to show the improvement of both the Renault PU and the chassis of the cars vs. the competition..
James Key who was a Toro Rosso-Honda defector to McLaren has said himself about Renault's gains.. and he knows the Honda and Renault engines.. article is on Motorsport.com.

There is a certain amount of light at the end of the 'wind tunnel' for the Renault PU..... 8)
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

Sieper
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:21 am

There is at the moment very little difference in HP between the 2. Latest gps data was Honda up by 7hp I think. That is really the only “evidence” And since Renault has made reliability improvement (which means more hp to be used).

I think I gave Fair factors on how the Norris contra overtake happened, no need to ridicule me.

ti.danno
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ti.danno » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:37 am

What's the source on those extra 7hp?
Last edited by ti.danno on Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sieper
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 pm

It was posted on F1.technical. I don’t bookmark every bit of info.

_cerber1
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by _cerber1 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:25 pm

Sieper wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 pm
It was posted on F1.technical. I don’t bookmark every bit of info.
It was a joke on April 1st.

Sieper
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:31 pm

I certainly did not get that from it. Apparently the Joke is on me then. But in Any case, we have very limited concrete information about Pu performance. For me it currently is close between these two units. I think there was a clear reason why RBR waited so long to sign with Honda (or perhaps it was vice versa even, who knows) as they knew the performance of Renault was better (at that moment at least).

saviour stivala
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:36 pm

It looks like Renault have managed to sort-out their power unit software as regards the aggressiveness level of running of their power unit qualifying and race modes without destroying their power unit elements by the 6th race (Monaco). Up to Monaco qualifying the four Renault cars had consumed between them 11 ICE’S, 11 TC’S, 11 H, 9 K’S, 8 ES, and 9 EC’S.

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PowerandtheGlory » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:18 pm

Sieper wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:21 am
There is at the moment very little difference in HP between the 2. Latest gps data was Honda up by 7hp I think. That is really the only “evidence” And since Renault has made reliability improvement (which means more hp to be used).

I think I gave Fair factors on how the Norris contra overtake happened, no need to ridicule me.
Not ridiculing you Sieper, just humouring you with the Groundhogs.

There seems to be plenty of Data on both sides to dispute the performance claims of both Renault and Honda PU's

This site posts some speeds after Quali which read very favourably for Renault;

https://f1i.com/news/343863-montreal-sp ... m-all.html

And yet on the Official FiA site the data seems to be different..

So, if we can remove the Quantative data, and look at the subjective qualitative data..

There was some good speed and HP and performance shown by the Renault Engines at a race track sensitive to PU power. The works renault cars split the Redbulls in a race distance with all factors included, traffic etc.

But still got lapped by the leaders... Objective and unbiased
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

Blackout
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Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Blackout » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:54 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:33 am
ringo wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 am
Judging by the race in Canada, the Renault powered cars seem to be able to stay ahead of Honda power, and even retake positions. The engine seems to have more performance unlocked.
Renault power unit does seem strong, however Kvyat with Honda did pass Sainz with Renault for points position also. So the Honda doesn't seem to be that bad.
Sainz had dead tires (+66 laps old afair)

Blackout
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Blackout » Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:55 pm

Albert Fabrega is good. But IMHO his second source is more correct; Renault is ahead pf the Honda, atleast in Q.
And AMuS datas tend to correlate that.
I compared every 2019 qualy speed trap with the 2018 ones and there is a constant; the Renault powered cars make the biggest gains on the straight lines* compared to 2018 (often by quite a margin) and they always have very competitive straight line speeds this year, even against "lower drag" cars...
*In Baku every team was slower in that regard (because of the higher drag in 2019 probably) but the Renault lost the least amount of kmh compared to 2018.
In Montreal their gains are a bit smaller than usual but even with a bigger RW, the Enstone car had better speed traps than the Toro Rosso in Q again... https://i.imgur.com/Be3fORI.jpg
The supposed small Honda advantage doesnt add up. and the canada Q speed trap sheet isnt an exception it's similar to many others.
(S3)
Image

Sieper
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Sieper » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:54 pm

PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:18 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:21 am
There is at the moment very little difference in HP between the 2. Latest gps data was Honda up by 7hp I think. That is really the only “evidence” And since Renault has made reliability improvement (which means more hp to be used).

I think I gave Fair factors on how the Norris contra overtake happened, no need to ridicule me.
Not ridiculing you Sieper, just humouring you with the Groundhogs.

There seems to be plenty of Data on both sides to dispute the performance claims of both Renault and Honda PU's

This site posts some speeds after Quali which read very favourably for Renault;

https://f1i.com/news/343863-montreal-sp ... m-all.html

And yet on the Official FiA site the data seems to be different..

So, if we can remove the Quantative data, and look at the subjective qualitative data..

There was some good speed and HP and performance shown by the Renault Engines at a race track sensitive to PU power. The works renault cars split the Redbulls in a race distance with all factors included, traffic etc.

But still got lapped by the leaders... Objective and unbiased
OK, Fair enough! Plussed that. Sometimes I need to lighter up, always think people are out to get me whilst it could just as well be a good intended bit of humour.

Thanks for the data, but to me the problematic part is always interpreting how that data came into being.

It does seem (to me) that this year indeed Renault is making strides. After Some reliability issues the power now indeed seems increased.