Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
Blackout
1310
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

diffuser wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:58 am

I remember seeing pictures of the PU. The axle ran through the whole PU and out the rear. The MGU-H was in the ICe. Behind the ICE, we first see the compressed air output that goes to the rads, then the compressor, followed by the air intake to the compressor, the turbo and finally the exhaust intake. The turbo and compressor were separate entities sharing a common axle with the MGU-H that ran the entirety of the ICE. Literally all they had to do was remove the compressor, slide the axle forward and reconnect it to the compressor on the front of the ICE. Obviously, they did stuff to integrate it better, add a water to air intercooler, redesign the intake etc but the essentials where there.
I posted 36578 pics of the different PUs but I have a feeling they were quite useless here... : P

And the 1rst reason Viry waited so long to go the split-turbo route on track is because they had many more important priorities, but not enough ressources and tools. So they needed and opted to go one step at a time and rework the foundations of the PU first to get the basics right. Then the split-turbo is just the cherry on the top and a mean to push the performance envelope further. Because if you put a split-turbo on a weak PU, it remains weak and just 'smaller'.
The 2nd reason is related, they simply did not have the right means to test, develop, optimise and make reliable this type of solution properly before 2018-2019.

User avatar
Blackout
1310
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

AR3-GP wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:38 pm
Blackout wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:57 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:36 am


I'm with you on this. They say they've gone for outright performance with reliability secondary, but they aren't class leading in this area either while having all these varied PU issues, the fact it's varied is a bigger worry as well. As far as we can tell, the Renault doesn't currently have a single desirable characteristic over the other three.. You can probably make a strong case the Honda is the class leader at the moment in an overall package sense with rock solid reliability and Renault trail them in all areas even with this "performance bias".
Hopefully they turn it around for '23 but if the issue is rooted in an architecture flaw it might be a painful 3 more seasons.

lol
Firstly, when they say "'We've gone for outright performance with reliability secondary" it's partly PR BS for the medias. It's exaggerated. And the main reasons they have these reliability issues are above (amongst others).
Actually they opted for a less aggressive compromise than what they say in the media, on the performance side too: they carefully postponed some (big) performance steps to 2023, obviously on the areas that are not completely frozen, like the intercooling system etc (and even their monocoque design has taken this into account for 2023). So they are very probably using a basic version for their intercooler this year. (Yes I have even more reliable sources in Viry this year).
And the reliability fixes which are also partly planned should help.

Regarding 2022 and 2023 performance, to say they "are far behind the best PU" is complete BS according to them and the other teams. All PU are extremely close today. And the Viry guys are already very confident regarding their 2022 level, not just peak power.
It's a big mistake to underestimate Viry. If we look at the cost-performance ratio, they're probably number 1, with Merc second and the other 2 far behind.
Better not to boast, Honda fans. In 2020 the brand new Honda PU was at best on par with the 2 years old RS PU that only had minor tweaks. And this could happen again in 2023. Viry simply needs more time to get its sh*t together. They need to spread their development over a longer period of time, but less than pre-2019. Their simulation & testing tools are getting much better.
@Blackout, I certainly hope you are correct and there is much more to come. This season has not been enjoyable.

It just seems like by the time this current PU is worth a damn, the engine reset will happen in 2026 and it will be back to square one.
Boah their season is not bad. If they finish 4th and keep the performance level they showed in qualy and race since the introduction of the A522B (Silvestone) they'll meet all their targets which is p4 and be the closest ever to the top 3 teams in performance. Today they are closer than 2020, their best season (2021 is not representative)
Then I'm sure the reliability problems are just a matter of time, and that MCL and Alpine have a huge big room for improvement in 2023 and will get even closer.

User avatar
diffuser
166
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

gruntguru wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 8:55 am
diffuser wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:58 am
Measuring power becomes very difficult. All the cars have different amounts of drag and different traction abilities. So you have to start measuring at a speed high enough that you know everyone will be on full throttle and stop measuring at speed where drag becomes too much of a factor. So something like 150kph to 250kph.
I don't have the time or stamina to do it and others would be far more proficient but it would be possible to extract the drag component of engine power from velocity/acceleration data. At least to the extent of being able to attribute a relative power number to each team. The method would rely on the relationship of drag power loss being proportional to velocity cubed.
That's why I gave you the youtube link, scarbs did it.

User avatar
diffuser
166
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Blackout wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:16 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 1:38 pm
Blackout wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:57 am



lol
Firstly, when they say "'We've gone for outright performance with reliability secondary" it's partly PR BS for the medias. It's exaggerated. And the main reasons they have these reliability issues are above (amongst others).
Actually they opted for a less aggressive compromise than what they say in the media, on the performance side too: they carefully postponed some (big) performance steps to 2023, obviously on the areas that are not completely frozen, like the intercooling system etc (and even their monocoque design has taken this into account for 2023). So they are very probably using a basic version for their intercooler this year. (Yes I have even more reliable sources in Viry this year).
And the reliability fixes which are also partly planned should help.

Regarding 2022 and 2023 performance, to say they "are far behind the best PU" is complete BS according to them and the other teams. All PU are extremely close today. And the Viry guys are already very confident regarding their 2022 level, not just peak power.
It's a big mistake to underestimate Viry. If we look at the cost-performance ratio, they're probably number 1, with Merc second and the other 2 far behind.
Better not to boast, Honda fans. In 2020 the brand new Honda PU was at best on par with the 2 years old RS PU that only had minor tweaks. And this could happen again in 2023. Viry simply needs more time to get its sh*t together. They need to spread their development over a longer period of time, but less than pre-2019. Their simulation & testing tools are getting much better.
@Blackout, I certainly hope you are correct and there is much more to come. This season has not been enjoyable.

It just seems like by the time this current PU is worth a damn, the engine reset will happen in 2026 and it will be back to square one.
Boah their season is not bad. If they finish 4th and keep the performance level they showed in qualy and race since the introduction of the A522B (Silvestone) they'll meet all their targets which is p4 and be the closest ever to the top 3 teams in performance. Today they are closer than 2020, their best season (2021 is not representative)
Then I'm sure the reliability problems are just a matter of time, and that MCL and Alpine have a huge big room for improvement in 2023 and will get even closer.
I saw them, read them and appreciated them.
I think Alpine would couldsider finishing 5th "OK" and finishing 4th "Very Happy". If they got better performance and reliability fom the PU, they might have been able to challenge Merc at some tracks but constructors would still have been "a bridge too far".

User avatar
peewon
1
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:11 am

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Blackout wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:07 am
peewon wrote:
Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:19 am
Compressor being in the front vs rear is the essence of the split turbo concept anyway. By all available indicators and analysis, Ferrari also have the compressor at the front. I don't know of it's ego or what that they keep denying they have a split turbo. It's benefits are fairly well understood now I think.
https://hackaday.com/2021/04/06/mercede ... formula-1/

Ferrari are also notorious under performers relative to their resources. Nowhere for the first few seasons of hybrid era. Then they went the fuel flow route in order to gain an advantage and although deemed illegal, at least showed some sense of innovation. Apart from that they've only been on par or ahead of PU performance this season when they have also lacked reliability. While they've mostly failed they at least shown an initiative to be at the sharp end.

Renault always seems to be planning to compete in 3-5 years down the line. And then resetting once they get there. McLaren's arc after the McHonda debacle is far more impressive relative to Renault.
Renault always seems to be planning to compete in 3-5 years down the line. And then resetting once they get there
.
It's more complicated than that.
.
.
McLaren's arc after the McHonda debacle is far more impressive relative to Renault.
.
It's the other way around. Enstone started from further back than Mclaren so they had a bigger mountain to climb. So to be neck and neck with Mclaren or better today means Enstone improved at least as much, but faster.
Because when Renault returned, Enstone was in shambles and had 470 employees, while Mclaren had near 800 or more, + a state of the art factory. (+ the budgets Renault put in F1 -the chassis side- is very close to Mclaren)
2019 is the season where Enstone shoot itself in the foot and hampered its own good progression chassis-wise compared to the best team, and it's the only year where Mclaren did a better job fair and square. But still...
Mclaren is one of the biggest improvers yes, with or after Enstone.
.
.
Ferrari are also notorious under performers relative to their resources.
.
Not Renault, who are under-spenders, not underperformers. And the ones who know what Viry spent, regard them as overperformers.
And Enstone is similar.

Yeah they are a manufacturer and a factory team. But their budget is far off the other 3 factory teams and is much closer to MCL if not a bit lower.

Speaking of Viry and the reliability, that's the reason they need time. Not only they dont have as much ressources as the others; they only have 1 car, so less data.
So they will need more time to put everything together, as usual. Like in 2019. The RE19 wasnt reliable at first, but it was very reliable in 2020 and 2021. (Yeah Renault kept the same PU, chassis and gearbox 3 seasons in the row). And still the car and the PU wee very competitive in their second year (2020). Actually they were faster than MCL in average in race and qualy.

And I dont think the Ferrari compressor is at the front or just behind that new round intercooler. IMO it's still at the rear of the V6, partly inside the V like in the last seasons.
I remember Scarborough tweeting about the Ferrari PU...



The criticism of Renault is mainly criticism of them being underfunded and lacking ambition. Which is a management issue and not of the technical side. But without knowledge of team finances, one can only talk in terms of potential of the team vs results.

Their management has had a history of not backing up their words and hence the skepticism but I admitted that its entirely possible they will get it right in this cycle before 2026.

User avatar
diffuser
166
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I think you've always got to take management's estimates with a certain amount of skeptictism. Those forward looking statements are all looked at by sponsors that they're trying to attract. Also, I think people that made those comments where people that were hired to make the team competitive before knowing the lacked the infrastructure. Naturally after they've agreed to those terms, it's hard to roll them back.

This year has been an eye opener for me to see teams like Alpine and McLaren so far back from the top 2, despite not having a big difference in budgets. Makes me think that it's gonna take a team like Williams a decade to be competitive again.

There is gonna be a CAP on the PU side as well. So if Viry have the infrastructure setup, they should be more competitive going forward.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
75
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

I remember Scarborough tweeting about the Ferrari PU...

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1 ... 6439945218



Anyone care to sketch a cross section of the ingress to the compressor