2017-2020 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Bandit1216
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Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Yes, I guess so. And they where miles ahead with their engine in 2014, and thus could focus on aero.

But would it be allowed and beneficial what I said. Channeling cold are though the car in one way or the other.

e.g.

Would it be allowed and beneficial to take inlet air for the engine from a completely different place (say the nose) and use the roll bar intake to channel air right though. Or use that for intercooling only.

Or would it be allowed to take air from the nose and channel all the way though the car to use it at the back F duct style, but better and more sneaky

Just some crazy ideas. Or are they?
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Not so crazy, the compressor gives you some very interesting options for the engine air inlet. What's the need for a ram air intake, when your manifold pressure is ~50psi of boost.
Saishū kōnā

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Bandit1216
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Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:55 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Yes, that’s what I mean. A few psi less delta P on the compressor would help it, but ram can be sources somewhere else.
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

trinidefender
trinidefender
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Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:25 pm
Not so crazy, the compressor gives you some very interesting options for the engine air inlet. What's the need for a ram air intake, when your manifold pressure is ~50psi of boost.
Because if you can get some compression from the ram air inlet then that is less work that the compressor has to do = lower intake air temperature and more energy available from the turbine for the MGU-H. There is a direct advantage from offsetting compressor work with ram air.

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:58 am
Bandit1216 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 8:56 am
I hope this is not covered before but I have a question about double diffuser -ish type advantages. Because merc is still so dominant I'm wondering more and more what their advantage is. Especially because it's not obvious where they get their downforce. Not for me at least. Not saying they cheat but:
Mercedes advantage is in everything. The have the best engine on the grid, but also because they design it they have the cooling tuned perfectly - one of the reasons they're poorer in traffic than others. Ferrari and Red Bull have this but are down on power compared to the Merc. They have enough money that they can make parts lighter-weight than most of the rest of the field - if the COG can be lowered by 10mm it's worth ~0.1s/lap. They have a good aero-platform, but also a stable aero-platform so the drivers are able to push with confidence - unlike the Ferrari and Red Bull which seem to have handling issues with one of their drivers (Albon unstable rear, Vettel can't get the tyres turned on for qualifying). It also means the car is gentle on its tyres because the drivers aren't sliding, and Hamilton seems to be better at keeping the tyres alive. They understand the Pirelli tyres, after their secret tyre test in 2013 they seem to have an innate and unmatched understanding of the Pirelli rubber... make of that what you will.

Once you start adding up all the little advantages then it becomes a big advantage. I don't think there's a trick they're just outspending and out-engineering their rivals.
You missed the main reason for the sweet handling of the Merc cars over the last several years... longer wheelbase. It gives them more surface area, specifically between the clutch and the rear axle and gives them more downforce. Also, their lower rake philosophy gives them a more stable and predictable aero platform. All of that combined with a best in field and innovative suspension systems both front and rear are what give them their advantage, not some of the conspiratorial nonsense you claim.

Also a great cooling system and heat management program lead to lower drag making them even more efficient.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mzso
mzso
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Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:16 pm
You missed the main reason for the sweet handling of the Merc cars over the last several years... longer wheelbase. It gives them more surface area, specifically between the clutch and the rear axle and gives them more downforce. Also, their lower rake philosophy gives them a more stable and predictable aero platform. All of that combined with a best in field and innovative suspension systems both front and rear are what give them their advantage, not some of the conspiratorial nonsense you claim.

Also a great cooling system and heat management program lead to lower drag making them even more efficient.
There's also something about unfair money distribution. They can just afford to pump in billions over the years, because they don't incur any losses, and only gain from the positive PR F1 wins. It makes it nearly a fixed game.

I wonder though why no-one copied their design choices before racing point. They got such a boost in performance so abruptly. It should be clear that the best car's choices are the best.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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mzso wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:29 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:16 pm
You missed the main reason for the sweet handling of the Merc cars over the last several years... longer wheelbase. It gives them more surface area, specifically between the clutch and the rear axle and gives them more downforce. Also, their lower rake philosophy gives them a more stable and predictable aero platform. All of that combined with a best in field and innovative suspension systems both front and rear are what give them their advantage, not some of the conspiratorial nonsense you claim.

Also a great cooling system and heat management program lead to lower drag making them even more efficient.
There's also something about unfair money distribution.
Umm, Ferrari gets more than anyone and still struggles to be legally competitive. So it's not just money.

Mercedes are winning because they figured out the current rules earliest and most successfully. And having built an advantage they have managed to keep it. Just like RedBull in the "Vettel years".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:29 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 3:16 pm
You missed the main reason for the sweet handling of the Merc cars over the last several years... longer wheelbase. It gives them more surface area, specifically between the clutch and the rear axle and gives them more downforce. Also, their lower rake philosophy gives them a more stable and predictable aero platform. All of that combined with a best in field and innovative suspension systems both front and rear are what give them their advantage, not some of the conspiratorial nonsense you claim.

Also a great cooling system and heat management program lead to lower drag making them even more efficient.
There's also something about unfair money distribution.
Umm, Ferrari gets more than anyone and still struggles to be legally competitive. So it's not just money.

Mercedes are winning because they figured out the current rules earliest and most successfully. And having built an advantage they have managed to keep it. Just like RedBull in the "Vettel years".
And because they burn oil the best #-o
Or should we forget about that just as we forgot about the illegal tyre test?

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:01 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 pm
mzso wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:29 pm

There's also something about unfair money distribution.
Umm, Ferrari gets more than anyone and still struggles to be legally competitive. So it's not just money.

Mercedes are winning because they figured out the current rules earliest and most successfully. And having built an advantage they have managed to keep it. Just like RedBull in the "Vettel years".
And because they burn oil the best #-o
Or should we forget about that just as we forgot about the illegal tyre test?
Everyone was burning oil.

One tyre test made for several years' of dominance? Wow, who knew a single test could be so productive... :roll:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

sosic2121
sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:02 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:01 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:40 pm


Umm, Ferrari gets more than anyone and still struggles to be legally competitive. So it's not just money.

Mercedes are winning because they figured out the current rules earliest and most successfully. And having built an advantage they have managed to keep it. Just like RedBull in the "Vettel years".
And because they burn oil the best #-o
Or should we forget about that just as we forgot about the illegal tyre test?
Everyone was burning oil.

One tyre test made for several years' of dominance? Wow, who knew a single test could be so productive... :roll:
Nice to see that you are accepting that mercedes is cheating.

And not everyone is breaking gentleman agreement in order to cheat more 😉

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:08 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:02 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:01 pm

And because they burn oil the best #-o
Or should we forget about that just as we forgot about the illegal tyre test?
Everyone was burning oil.

One tyre test made for several years' of dominance? Wow, who knew a single test could be so productive... :roll:
Nice to see that you are accepting that mercedes is cheating.

And not everyone is breaking gentleman agreement in order to cheat more 😉
Where did I say they are cheating?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

sosic2121
sosic2121
13
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:11 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:08 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:02 pm

Everyone was burning oil.

One tyre test made for several years' of dominance? Wow, who knew a single test could be so productive... :roll:
Nice to see that you are accepting that mercedes is cheating.

And not everyone is breaking gentleman agreement in order to cheat more 😉
Where did I say they are cheating?
And what do you think burining oil and having illegal test(to sort you greatest weakness) is? If ferrari did that you would be shouting that they cheat.

Actually, you are saying that they cheat but can't say another word about it #-o

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
561
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:48 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:11 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:08 pm

Nice to see that you are accepting that mercedes is cheating.

And not everyone is breaking gentleman agreement in order to cheat more 😉
Where did I say they are cheating?
And what do you think burining oil and having illegal test(to sort you greatest weakness) is? If ferrari did that you would be shouting that they cheat.

Actually, you are saying that they cheat but can't say another word about it #-o
Ferrari were burning oil you know.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

sosic2121
sosic2121
13
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:49 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:48 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:11 pm

Where did I say they are cheating?
And what do you think burining oil and having illegal test(to sort you greatest weakness) is? If ferrari did that you would be shouting that they cheat.

Actually, you are saying that they cheat but can't say another word about it #-o
Ferrari were burning oil you know.
I know. That's why it was banned :D
But it was fine before they did. Go figure

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:07 pm

Re: 2017-2020 Aerodynamic Technical Regulations

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Back on topic, does anyone know why side skits weren't adopted for the new aero regs? Wouldn't they provide more downforce and cut down on turbulence, especially in traffic?