Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Hoffman900]

The CAD images and an outline of what was changed is shared to the other teams. They’ve done this for a while. The deterrent is that whatever you change is going to be seen by your competitors.

[AR3-GP]

The CAD images and an outline of what was changed is shared to the other teams. They’ve done this for a while. The deterrent is that whatever you change is going to be seen by your competitors.

If a manufacturer could make a change to improve their own performance, I doubt they would care at all if another manufacturer knows what they did. To see and to copy are two different things. Furthermore, you are allowed very little in the way of geometry changes so there is not that much value in seeing the CAD of a rival. It's not like Renault can go out and build a Ferrari/Mercedes PU because they've seen some CAD. MGU-H is dead after '25 as well. Such changes would be completely outside of the scope of the geometry restrictions.

To put it another way, has any manufacturer held back on an aero upgrade because a rival would see it?

This is the culture of F1. If there's a loophole, everyone is prepared to drive a bus through them for their own benefit.

[saviour stivala]

"Such changes would be completely outside of the scope of geometry restrictions". As well as of material allowed as specified by the rules.

[AR3-GP]

"Such changes would be completely outside of the scope of geometry restrictions". As well as of material allowed as specified by the rules.

See Pursue_one's post above:

This means you can't constantly introduce updates. The modifications that can be made concern the materials as long as the layout, the wiring and the exhaust system are not modified,

and to be clear, you can make minor geometry changes as well. So Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault can make tweaks to what is predominantly their original design.

What I was trying to highlight was that it would not be possible for Renault to show up with someone else's turbocharger or MGU-H because they saw the CAD. That kind of change is outside the scope. We've already heard rumor that Renault will use a new water pump design for 2023. This is a significant change actually.

[Hoffman900]

"Such changes would be completely outside of the scope of geometry restrictions". As well as of material allowed as specified by the rules.

See Pursue_one's post above:

This means you can't constantly introduce updates. The modifications that can be made concern the materials as long as the layout, the wiring and the exhaust system are not modified,

and to be clear, you can make minor geometry changes as well. So Mercedes/Ferrari/Renault can make tweaks to what is predominantly their original design.

What I was trying to highlight was that it would not be possible for Renault to show up with someone else's turbocharger or MGU-H because they saw the CAD. That kind of change is outside the scope. We've already heard rumor that Renault will use a new water pump design for 2023. This is a significant change actually.

Oh absolutely. Casual fans seem to have this impression that you can just pick and choose pieces to create a super engine or aero shape, and it's not true at all. It's about the entire package and you can't just mix and match pieces.

My point about the reliability items is that the changes are submitted to the FIA who then pass it around to the other teams. In Merc's case, my understanding they were just changing the filet radius on parts of the crank.

[saviour stivala]

If and when Renault will introduce a 'new' water pump design, it would mean that they have been granted permission by the governing body as agreed also by the other teams. This granted permission would be as permitted by the rules to any engine that have been homologated for the 2022 season onwards. It is useless to argue and speculate about such granting permissions, such as ''a change to gain more power'' and in between push-in changes to ''materials, dimensions and others'' that can only add confusion, if doubts are granted about the FIA, there is no way to doubt the other competing teams.

[AR3-GP]

If and when Renault will introduce a 'new' water pump design, it would mean that they have been granted permission by the governing body as agreed also by the other teams. This granted permission would be as permitted by the rules to any engine that have been homologated for the 2022 season onwards. It is useless to argue and speculate about such granting permissions, such as ''a change to gain more power'' and in between push-in changes to ''materials, dimensions and others'' that can only add confusion, if doubts are granted about the FIA, there is no way to doubt the other competing teams.

Plenty of reason to doubt because it's a game of mutually assured destruction.

When one manufacturer rejects another manufacturer request, that manufacturer will have their own request rejected in a giant game of tit for tat.

[saviour stivala]

If ever I hit upon such total mistrust in the administration of the sports I follow, or anything that I will ever follow, I will for sure not be following anymore. And at a total loss how one feels such mistrust and still follows.

[Venturiation]

What do you guys think about the new fuel rumoured for the W14, isn’t fuel frozen like the engine?

[AR3-GP]

What do you guys think about the new fuel rumoured for the W14, isn’t fuel frozen like the engine?

There is no new fuel. Fuel is frozen until 2026.

[SuperCNJ]

Yeah, I think both fuel and engine oil is frozen but all other fluids can be developed iirc.

[Mansell89]

Yeah, I think both fuel and engine oil is frozen but all other fluids can be developed iirc.

Very naive question from someone with zero engine knowledge- can performance gains of any real significance come from the fluids aside from fuel and engine oil?

[AR3-GP]

Yeah, I think both fuel and engine oil is frozen but all other fluids can be developed iirc.

Very naive question from someone with zero engine knowledge- can performance gains of any real significance come from the fluids aside from fuel and engine oil?

Improving the friction modifying and thermal conductance properties of a gearbox oil can reduce friction in the gearbox and/or allow a smaller, lighter gearbox cooler, which also has less air resistance.

Improved coolant can allow higher operating temperature and smaller radiator. This has several positive knock-on effects for performance. Higher operating temperature allows for a smaller water cooler which weighs less, and has less air resistance. Higher operating temperature seems to make the combustion cycle more efficient as well. Something to do with the energy that is lost due to the temp difference between the working gases, and the engine block.

In years past, it was claimed that some were experimenting with burning coolant for combustion....but that's for another thread

[Venturiation]

Yeah, I think both fuel and engine oil is frozen but all other fluids can be developed iirc.

Very naive question from someone with zero engine knowledge- can performance gains of any real significance come from the fluids aside from fuel and engine oil?

Improving the friction modifying and thermal conductance properties of a gearbox oil can reduce friction in the gearbox and/or allow a smaller, lighter gearbox cooler, which also has less air resistance.

Improved coolant can allow higher operating temperature and smaller radiator. This has several positive knock-on effects for performance. Higher operating temperature allows for a smaller water cooler which weighs less, and has less air resistance. Higher operating temperature seems to make the combustion cycle more efficient as well. Something to do with the energy that is lost due to the temp difference between the working gases, and the engine block.

In years past, it was claimed that some were experimenting with burning coolant for combustion....but that's for another thread

Do you think that’s what they are referring to when articles say that mercedes will have better fuel ,and they also say work has been done to the gearbox for W14

[LM10]

Very naive question from someone with zero engine knowledge- can performance gains of any real significance come from the fluids aside from fuel and engine oil?

Improving the friction modifying and thermal conductance properties of a gearbox oil can reduce friction in the gearbox and/or allow a smaller, lighter gearbox cooler, which also has less air resistance.

Improved coolant can allow higher operating temperature and smaller radiator. This has several positive knock-on effects for performance. Higher operating temperature allows for a smaller water cooler which weighs less, and has less air resistance. Higher operating temperature seems to make the combustion cycle more efficient as well. Something to do with the energy that is lost due to the temp difference between the working gases, and the engine block.

In years past, it was claimed that some were experimenting with burning coolant for combustion....but that's for another thread

Do you think that’s what they are referring to when articles say that mercedes will have better fuel ,and they also say work has been done to the gearbox for W14

Work on fuel is frozen. All teams will have the same fuel they had in 2022. AR3-GP is talking about coolant.