Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

[NoDivergence]

Well, it was obvious since years ago it would never be faster than a F1 car, because there´re no tires wich can cope with the necessary loads

Even so, it´s still an amazing piece of engineering with a phylosophy never seen before, wich probably is still faster than any other hypercar

Sorry, but what philosophy has never been seen before? Caparo T1 disagrees

[vorticism]

Really, it's just about every statement of performance that they've missed. Road car on regular Michelin Cup 2 was stated to be faster than LMP2 on video, AMR Pro was stated to be close to/faster than F1, car was told to customers that it would have 1:1 power to weight. Now Adrian Newey himself is distancing himself from the car.

Could be, I'm not familiar with the other claims. Where are the statements though. LMP2 seems more realistic. Regardless, who will be setting the lap times? Can the average buyer drive an LMP2 type car at 10/10ths? Without going off track. Lap times for headlines usually involve pro drivers of some sort, test drivers or racers. Has a known figure wheeled one yet?

[Tim.Wright]

On motorsport.com its written:

Aston Martin CEO Andy Palmer said that the mission was clear: its limited edition model will have to be quicker than F1.

When asked if the AM-RB 001 had to be the fastest road car ever created, he said: "If you put it out there, somebody will always try to beat you - which is probably the point.

"As we sit here today, the raison d'etre that we've given the team is to be faster than an F1 car around Silverstone – or indeed any other F1 track.

"I am sure there are other cars that can go in straight lines quicker than this. We don't make drag cars, we make cars you can use. That is the raison d'etre we use."

[Edax]

OMG the Valkirie does not have space for luggage? I´m cancelling my order then


Maybe it´s not faster than a F1 car, but can someone point me to any other hyper car wich can corner at 3Gs... without a fan (McMurtry)?



It´s an amazing piece of engineering wich is unique, anyone who cannot accept this has a problem as a motorsport fan

I like the car a lot. The design is absolutely stunning. And i don’t care so much about the F1 claim. Since they did not specify the F1 car the statement is still true for most F1 cars ever built anyway .

But I do have an issue with the engine. If you set out to make the fastest car possible that can actually take corners then I feel that this is not the way to go. If you look at the Gemera with its 70kg TFG engine, then the 206 kg dinosaur in the back of this car does not make sense.

Of course it sounds really, really nice. But if you look at the possibilities wasted it terms of overall weight, balance, packaging and power output it does seem to me like a big compromise. I would like to have seen them go all out on that as well.

[cheeRS]

The point is they made such a big song and dance with their outlandish claims that it is a road car that's faster than an F1. The car was always cool in it's own right, it didn't need the absurd (and outright lies) marketing behind it.

A CEO talking to a journo in one interview six years ago constitutes a big song and dance and or a marketing scheme?
"A drunken Andy Palmer of GT-R LM fame said to a journo..." AFAIR when the car was revealed there was no mention of F1. f.e. the press release from 2018 is below. In fact I've never read this claim anywhere but here where the thread title apparently references said article. Usually it was just talked up that Newey was involved and would have a bespoke V12 with unusual aero. So is the moaning in this thread general anti-AM sentiment or neweyphobia or an anti-soft drinks lobby?

https://www.netcarshow.com/aston_martin/2018-valkyrie/

With all due respect, just because you are ignorant to the claims AM made about this car dating back to 2017 or so, doesn’t mean that those claims weren’t made. By multiple bigwigs at AM, mind you, not just a “drunk Andy Palmer”. This was all long before the AMR Pro was announced, so don’t try that argument either. Due diligence, then come back here.

[Andres125sx]

Well, it was obvious since years ago it would never be faster than a F1 car, because there´re no tires wich can cope with the necessary loads

Even so, it´s still an amazing piece of engineering with a phylosophy never seen before, wich probably is still faster than any other hypercar

I've said elsewhere that it's a piece of automotive sculpture. It will be interesting if we ever get to see one of them up against the competition for a proper comparison. It's going to be quick - not as quick as a Bugatti, of course - but will it be any faster point-to-point than cars such as the GMA T50? That's what I'd like to see. And hear - two V12s going flat chat would be a great video on its own!

But the fact it isn't faster than an F1 car is nothing to do with tyres. It can't generate the loads necessary so the tyres are irrelevant. The track car version will doubtless make huge levels of downforce - the track version of the T50 made around 2 tonnes of downforce when they started out, but they knocked it back to 1.5 tonnes because 2 tonnes would be too much for the owners. I wonder how much the AMR Pro makes.

In fact, wouldn't it be great to see the road versions and the track versions of these (and others, perhaps) going up against each other in head-to-head comparisons?

Not faster than a Bugatti? What´s the reason? It´s lighter, with better power/weight ratio, and produce more DF, doesn´t it?


Can´t remember where did I read it, but I think it can´t prouduce the necessary loads because no road tire can cope with those loads, not the other way around

[Andres125sx]

Well, it was obvious since years ago it would never be faster than a F1 car, because there´re no tires wich can cope with the necessary loads

Even so, it´s still an amazing piece of engineering with a phylosophy never seen before, wich probably is still faster than any other hypercar

Sorry, but what philosophy has never been seen before? Caparo T1 disagrees

Are you really comparing Valkirie aerodynamics with Caparo aerodynamics? Valkirie produces more than double the DF of the Caparo. Just a quick look at the tunnels/difusser show the huge differences

Caparo



Valkirie




Comparing both front wings is also like comparing the design of a student with the design of a F1 engineer

Caparo FW



Valkirie FW

[Just_a_fan]

Well, it was obvious since years ago it would never be faster than a F1 car, because there´re no tires wich can cope with the necessary loads

Even so, it´s still an amazing piece of engineering with a phylosophy never seen before, wich probably is still faster than any other hypercar

I've said elsewhere that it's a piece of automotive sculpture. It will be interesting if we ever get to see one of them up against the competition for a proper comparison. It's going to be quick - not as quick as a Bugatti, of course - but will it be any faster point-to-point than cars such as the GMA T50? That's what I'd like to see. And hear - two V12s going flat chat would be a great video on its own!

But the fact it isn't faster than an F1 car is nothing to do with tyres. It can't generate the loads necessary so the tyres are irrelevant. The track car version will doubtless make huge levels of downforce - the track version of the T50 made around 2 tonnes of downforce when they started out, but they knocked it back to 1.5 tonnes because 2 tonnes would be too much for the owners. I wonder how much the AMR Pro makes.

In fact, wouldn't it be great to see the road versions and the track versions of these (and others, perhaps) going up against each other in head-to-head comparisons?

Not faster than a Bugatti? What´s the reason? It´s lighter, with better power/weight ratio, and produce more DF, doesn´t it?


Can´t remember where did I read it, but I think it can´t prouduce the necessary loads because no road tire can cope with those loads, not the other way around

Faster as in top speed. I very much doubt it will be doing over 260mph like the Chiron can. That's just down to pure power where the Bugatti has c.400bhp more than the Valkyrie.

As for acceleration, it'll be interesting to see whether it can match / beat the Chiron's current records. The Chiron's 4wd means it has ridiculous acceleration thanks to its traction advantage.

No doubt the Valkyrie will be quicker around a twisty course as it has so much less weight.

I'd be interested to know the real situation with the loads / tyres. I've seen suggestions that the Bugatti produces half a tonne of downforce. Add that to its weight and you have loads of 2.5t on the tyres. Tyres that can take that and do a speed of 260mph ought to be good enough for the Valkyrie to produce much more downforce given its much lower kerb weight. As always, getting real figures is very difficult for we in the general public.

[Just_a_fan]

Well, it was obvious since years ago it would never be faster than a F1 car, because there´re no tires wich can cope with the necessary loads

Even so, it´s still an amazing piece of engineering with a phylosophy never seen before, wich probably is still faster than any other hypercar

Sorry, but what philosophy has never been seen before? Caparo T1 disagrees

Are you really comparing Valkirie aerodynamics with Caparo aerodynamics? Valkirie produces more than double the DF of the Caparo. Just a quick look at the tunnels/difusser show the huge differences

Do you have figures for the downforce produced by both? Genuine question as I'd be interested to see what the Valkyrie is generating.

[gandharva]

While it’s hard to comprehend that a road car would ever have that problem, the Valkryie will reportedly load its chassis with 1800kg worth of downforce.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/aston- ... -downforce

Compared to the "normal" Valkyrie, the AMR Pro generates twice the downforce. The extreme aero package also enables lateral accelerations of more than 3G. The car has also been massively stretched. The wheelbase is 266 millimeters longer, and overall the car grows by 380 millimeters thanks to the body kit. There is also more track width on both axles (96 mm at the front, 115 mm at the rear) and an aero-optimized underbody.

Translated from: https://de.motor1.com/news/516732/aston ... e-amr-pro/

So for AMR Pro official figures are around 3600 kg of load. I'm pretty sure that Caparo is not even able to produce 1/3 of that.

[Just_a_fan]

While it’s hard to comprehend that a road car would ever have that problem, the Valkryie will reportedly load its chassis with 1800kg worth of downforce.

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/aston- ... -downforce

Compared to the "normal" Valkyrie, the AMR Pro generates twice the downforce. The extreme aero package also enables lateral accelerations of more than 3G. The car has also been massively stretched. The wheelbase is 266 millimeters longer, and overall the car grows by 380 millimeters thanks to the body kit. There is also more track width on both axles (96 mm at the front, 115 mm at the rear) and an aero-optimized underbody.

Translated from: https://de.motor1.com/news/516732/aston ... e-amr-pro/

So for AMR Pro official figures are around 3600 kg of load.

The AMR Pro figure isn't official at all, it's an extrapolation from a previous "reportedly" figure. That's the problem. I did see a figure of >1400kg at 240km/h for the Spider (which is just the Valkyrie with a removable roof panel).

Key to Valkyrie Spider’s unprecedented performance is the ultra-lightweight construction and high downforce aerodynamics package. The upper body surfaces of the teardrop-shaped cockpit and lower tub contours follow the envelope of space available between the huge full-length Venturi tunnels that run either side of the cockpit floor. Drawing huge quantities of air beneath the car to feed the rear diffuser, these tunnels are the key to generating Aston Martin Valkyrie Spider’s extraordinary levels of downforce - >1400kg at 240km/h in track mode - while keeping the upper body surfaces free from additional aerodynamic devices that would spoil the purity of the open-top styling.

https://www.astonmartin.com/en-gb/our-w ... n-the-road

"Track mode"? Is that a suspension system that drops the height or does it just stiffen the roll bars and damping?

In the Shmee video on the Valkyrie thread, he states that the Pro makes around 2000kg of downforce which is way less than the figures above suggest. Did he get that figure from talking to the AM guys? Don't know.

That's the problem - there's very little real information, lots of hype. I hope someone will get their hands on one and do some proper performance figures.

[vorticism]

Caparo
https://www.strattonmotorcompany.com/wp ... 2039-1.jpg

Valkirie
https://inspgr.id/app/uploads/2017/10/c ... eature.jpg

Comparing both front wings is also like comparing the design of a student with the design of a F1 engineer

Caparo FW
https://static1.hotcarsimages.com/wordp ... aro-T1.jpg

Valkirie FW
https://preview.redd.it/g26a8uo5h5w31.j ... e808e49fad

Interesting to note that the Caparo T1 had a 2009 F1 type front wing in 2006/7.

https://www.netcarshow.com/aston_martin/2018-valkyrie/

With all due respect, just because you are ignorant to the claims AM made about this car dating back to 2017 or so, doesn’t mean that those claims weren’t made. By multiple bigwigs at AM, mind you, not just a “drunk Andy Palmer”. This was all long before the AMR Pro was announced, so don’t try that argument either. Due diligence, then come back here.

I posted the corporate press release from 2018. You posted... nothing. Due diligence indeed.

[Just_a_fan]

https://www.netcarshow.com/aston_martin/2018-valkyrie/

With all due respect, just because you are ignorant to the claims AM made about this car dating back to 2017 or so, doesn’t mean that those claims weren’t made. By multiple bigwigs at AM, mind you, not just a “drunk Andy Palmer”. This was all long before the AMR Pro was announced, so don’t try that argument either. Due diligence, then come back here.

I posted the corporate press release from 2018. You posted... nothing. Due diligence indeed.

Which press release was that then? You posted a link to a third party web site. And you accused AM's CEO of being drunk.

[Andres125sx]

Sorry, but what philosophy has never been seen before? Caparo T1 disagrees

Are you really comparing Valkirie aerodynamics with Caparo aerodynamics? Valkirie produces more than double the DF of the Caparo. Just a quick look at the tunnels/difusser show the huge differences

Do you have figures for the downforce produced by both? Genuine question as I'd be interested to see what the Valkyrie is generating.

For the Caparo...

a single element fixed wing atop a ground effect rear diffuser keeps the rear planted. At speeds of 149 mph, it's generating a real world 875 kgs of down force, more than the T1 itself weighs. The only issue with its race-car wing set-up, you need to be going fast to gain the maximum benefits

https://www.hotcars.com/things-you-didn ... caparo-t1/


About the Valkirie, I´ve read same numbers posted just above, so the Valkirie produce around 2.5-3.5 (depending on the source) more DF than the Caparo, since I guess those numbers (875kg DF) are with the race-car wing set-up, so it musst be compared with the AMR Pro

[Andres125sx]

Faster as in top speed. I very much doubt it will be doing over 260mph like the Chiron can. That's just down to pure power where the Bugatti has c.400bhp more than the Valkyrie.

Agree on that obviously

As for acceleration, it'll be interesting to see whether it can match / beat the Chiron's current records. The Chiron's 4wd means it has ridiculous acceleration thanks to its traction advantage.

It´d be an interesting comparison, I´ve always wondered how much lighter a 2wd car must be to match a 4wd car in acceleration, it´s comparing apples to oranges but fun anycase

I'd be interested to know the real situation with the loads / tyres. I've seen suggestions that the Bugatti produces half a tonne of downforce. Add that to its weight and you have loads of 2.5t on the tyres. Tyres that can take that and do a speed of 260mph ought to be good enough for the Valkyrie to produce much more downforce given its much lower kerb weight. As always, getting real figures is very difficult for we in the general public.

No necessarily. Problem with tires is not the vertical load at max speed, wich in both cars must be around 3 tonnes as the Bugatti higher weight will compensate the lower DF (more or less).

Problem comes when, at that max speed, with around 750kg on each wheel, you turn the wheel and the weight transfer increase the load in the outer tires. That increase will depend on the DF produced by the car, higher DF, higher load will be transfered to the outer tires, so the Valkirie will load those tires significantly more than any Bugatti.

Moreover, appart from the vertical loads, there will also be some huge lateral forces into those tires wich will directly depend on the DF and max lateral Gs, so also here the Valkirie will stress the tires much more than any Bugatti.

My wild guess is these lateral forces are the limiting factor, no road legal tire is designed to support any significant lateral force (> 1G), even if they can take the necessry weight/vertical force