Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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NoDivergence
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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vorticism wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 15:11
NoDivergence wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 05:03
vorticism wrote:
18 Aug 2022, 23:52
Right but if it's a laptime with caveats then what use does the delta value serve? 3.2g cornering and a +10 top speed delta to DPi is in the ballpark as far as individual metrics go, and you could hit both of those metrics if you wanted to on a 3 minute laptime in between talking to your passenger. Seems unlikely it has an off the shelf LMP2 chassis, the roofline and door openings would be different. The dutchman in your vid stated 1400kg although I can't find this figure anywhere else except some reference to someone running the plates, which implies an MOT inspection which might imply an in situ measurement i.e. presence of fuel or even occupants. Maybe he mispoke?
It's an EU registration weight, which includes 90% fuel and I believe one 75 kg occupant, which is why I stated 1320 kg in my post to subtract out occupant. That said, that is quite standard quoted for wet weights. Much higher than what was originally promised.
Fuel weight anywhere from 75-150 kg, passenger weight 75-150 kg, 5-10 kg for fluids. Which could bring it nearer to the weight posted on wikipedia. Min 1100 kg assuming the rumored starting figure of 1400 kg is a real number. +40% weight increase would be a massive discrepancy on any automotive project and I doubt it could be explained by cost cutting on a carbon tub. Doesn't make sense to me.

Interesting article on the finances, btw. It still lacks vehicle metrics though. Only one was mentioned, a single goodwood hill run, not sure which year. Goodwood is a mixed bag times wise. Rally and GT3 cars often post the fastest times year to year, outpacing open wheelers, due to the nature of the course and who's driving and whether or not the vehicle owner is okay with a potential crash. A kei class sized car currently holds the record.
150 kg passenger weight? No. EU weight AT BEST is with single occupant and 90% fuel.

The Valkyrie has a 18.5 gallon tank. At 6 pounds per gallon fuel, that is 110 pounds, or 50 kg give or take if we're generous. Let's say there's another 10 kg of hydraulics and washer fluid, etc.

So 1400-75-50-10 puts dry weight at 1265 kg.

As I stated, hundreds of kg (265 kg) higher than promised to customers putting down deposits, per the linked history I posted. The cost cutting/under designed structures that is rumored is not the tub. It's for every metal component on the car, titanium fasteners, control arms, gearbox, etc etc. Or it just sounded good to a marketing guy. 1000 hp and 1000 kg

The only person who has avoided mass creep for a road car is Gordon Murray.

As far as lap times go for the AMR Pro, there are none that are representative.

But it is telling that their hoped for laptime at LeMans is 3'20. Which I doubt they'll be able to hit based on their development record of these cars.

Oh, and LMP2 cars can corner at 3.5G with theoretical up to 4G at the right speed and corner type.

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vorticism
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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Fair point, I had assumed a motorsports size fuel tank. 18.5 is rather small (cursory glance online finds listing of even smaller 13.5 gallons). Is EU registration weight ever listed as maximum laden capacity? Without documents or scales its guesswork.
NoDivergence wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 18:24
As I stated, hundreds of kg (265 kg) higher than promised to customers putting down deposits, per the linked history I posted. The cost cutting/under designed structures that is rumored is not the tub. It's for every metal component on the car, titanium fasteners, control arms, gearbox, etc etc. Or it just sounded good to a marketing guy. 1000 hp and 1000 kg
If it was a marketing or the CEO who misspoke, blurting out numbers, it wouldn't necessarily be considered mass creep. Even plus 25% is a huge miss. Regardless, 25% over a marketing blurb or 25% over internal engineering estimates?

NoDivergence wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 18:24
The only person who has avoided mass creep for a road car is Gordon Murray.
Is this a meme now? He's respected of course, and the F1 is one of the greatest cars of all time, yet there still remains Issigonis, Chapman, H. Ford, F. Porsche, F.A. Porsche, Bizzarrini, F. Lamborghini, Uehara (NSX), Rackham (Elise) and a thousand nameless engineers across a century of automobilia who likely delivered projects within specification.
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NoDivergence
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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vorticism wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 19:49
Fair point, I had assumed a motorsports size fuel tank. 18.5 is rather small (cursory glance online finds listing of even smaller 13.5 gallons). Is EU registration weight ever listed as maximum laden capacity? Without documents or scales its guesswork.
NoDivergence wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 18:24
As I stated, hundreds of kg (265 kg) higher than promised to customers putting down deposits, per the linked history I posted. The cost cutting/under designed structures that is rumored is not the tub. It's for every metal component on the car, titanium fasteners, control arms, gearbox, etc etc. Or it just sounded good to a marketing guy. 1000 hp and 1000 kg
If it was a marketing or the CEO who misspoke, blurting out numbers, it wouldn't necessarily be considered mass creep. Even plus 25% is a huge miss. Regardless, 25% over a marketing blurb or 25% over internal engineering estimates?

NoDivergence wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 18:24
The only person who has avoided mass creep for a road car is Gordon Murray.
Is this a meme now? He's respected of course, and the F1 is one of the greatest cars of all time, yet there still remains Issigonis, Chapman, H. Ford, F. Porsche, F.A. Porsche, Bizzarrini, F. Lamborghini, Uehara (NSX), Rackham (Elise) and a thousand nameless engineers across a century of automobilia who likely delivered projects within specification.
It's 25+% overweight vs what was told to customers who funded the whole thing. It does not matter who or what that really entailed, but that's what sold the project in the first place.

I'm referring to current designers, not Colin Chapman who was Gordon's idol. Even then, they did not promise a weight to the masses prior to unveiling their cars. Gordon stated 1000 kg for the T.50. He delivered

Edax
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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NoDivergence wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 18:24

The only person who has avoided mass creep for a road car is Gordon Murray.
I don’t know if that is a fair comparison. Yes the Caparo had the same philosophy and ticked many of the boxes, but it also exploded during its public debut, and never developed into a commercial product. I would be hesitant to call that a road car.

If AM avoided that scenario by walking back on some of their promises then I’d say that is not something to be ashamed off.

Could they have done better? Yes i think so. But I can also understand given the financial situation and the fact that the safety requirements for supercars were severely tightened during its development that they ended up like this.

In any way they have a product on the road which they perhaps can evolve to what they originally intended.

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vorticism
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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NoDivergence wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 21:17
It's 25+% overweight vs what was told to customers who funded the whole thing. It does not matter who or what that really entailed, but that's what sold the project in the first place.
It matters when trying to assess which types of mistakes may have been made: engineering, accounting, marketing, management, etc.
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Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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vorticism wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 19:49


Is this a meme now? He's respected of course, and the F1 is one of the greatest cars of all time, yet there still remains Issigonis, Chapman, H. Ford, F. Porsche, F.A. Porsche, Bizzarrini, F. Lamborghini, Uehara (NSX), Rackham (Elise) and a thousand nameless engineers across a century of automobilia who likely delivered projects within specification.
Otherwise known as deflection. What happened decades ago is irrelevant.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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NoDivergence wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 18:11
But you stated this philosophy is new. It's not.

If we´re going to discuss semantics, then ok, let´s discuss semantics

The Caparo is a mimic of a single seater, oper wheel car. Even if wheels are closed, the philosophy of the caparo is a road legal single seater open wheel car.

The Valkyrie otoh is a coupe style car, but with hugely advanced aerodynamics never seen before in any other coupe style car. Actually not even in single seater mimics like the Caparo. They´re completely different car concepts and philosophies.

Do you know any other coupe style car, with venturi tunnels similar to these... or venturi tunnels at all? No, there´s not anything similar to this:

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Do you know any other car, coupe style, with a front wing this similar to a F1 front wing with multi-element wing, vortex generators in front of the front wheels, etc.?. No there´s not anything similar to this:

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I could continue with the floor, vortex generators in front of the rear wheels, open underfloor... but you get the idea

Apart from this, if we´re discussing semantics, your statement of the Caparo superior DF/weight ratio is plain wrong, as it does not reach 2/1 ratio, not even with the track version wing and tires, while the Valkyrie Pro exceed that 2/1 ratio so it´s faster in the corners, and obviously much faster in the straights.


Anycase comparing the Caparo and Valkyrie is quite absurd, they´re completely different cars. I´d always go for the Caparo for the price/perfomance ratio, but the comment was about Valkyrie engineering, concept and philosophy, wich IMHO is unique, a master piece, and a new concept never seen before and I admire it for this, even if the Caparo is a bargain for its perfomance/price ratio.

I´ll never purchase any of the two anycase, but I can admire both for their strong points, even if both have several weak ones, but as a motorsport fan, I focus on the engineering work and strong points, and the Valkyrie has some spectacular an unique strong points, wich is great in this era of dozens of >1000hp hypercars wich all are basically the same, a monster engine/PU into a standard chasis.

The Valkyrie is different, and I applaud it =D>

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vorticism
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 Aug 2022, 02:22
vorticism wrote:
19 Aug 2022, 19:49
Is this a meme now? He's respected of course, and the F1 is one of the greatest cars of all time, yet there still remains Issigonis, Chapman, H. Ford, F. Porsche, F.A. Porsche, Bizzarrini, F. Lamborghini, Uehara (NSX), Rackham (Elise) and a thousand nameless engineers across a century of automobilia who likely delivered projects within specification.
Otherwise known as deflection. What happened decades ago is irrelevant.
Presumably the omission of the original quote rebuffed indicates that it is was too difficult for our later life finger painter to defend. If the Elise was too ancient a reference, then choose from myriad 21st c. examples. I'll start. Dallara Stradale. 855 kg dry, 400-800 kg DF, 2g lateral with 4 cu ft cargo. To get an idea of production costs and working within them, they'll make about 5x as many at 1/10 the cost of a T.50. The Andy Palmer-tier claim was, that since it was not designed by G.M., that it suffers from mass creep; full stop. I'm guessing the number of cars that Gordon didn't design is somewhere between ten and ten-thousand, so this tangent could go on for a while.

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djos
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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Looks like Mclaren decided to get in on the HyperCar game! The Solus GT has a naturally aspirated V10 engine with 829bhp.

https://apple.news/Ap7FYfw74Qh-X2jF7RX5Dpg

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"In downforce we trust"

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Holm86
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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djos wrote:
21 Aug 2022, 02:31
Looks like Mclaren decided to get in on the HyperCar game! The Solus GT has a naturally aspirated V10 engine with 829bhp.

https://apple.news/Ap7FYfw74Qh-X2jF7RX5Dpg

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iq ... 200x-1.jpg
Isn't it just a spec chassis with an off the shelf Judd engine??

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djos
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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Holm86 wrote:
21 Aug 2022, 04:02
djos wrote:
21 Aug 2022, 02:31
Looks like Mclaren decided to get in on the HyperCar game! The Solus GT has a naturally aspirated V10 engine with 829bhp.

https://apple.news/Ap7FYfw74Qh-X2jF7RX5Dpg

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iq ... 200x-1.jpg
Isn't it just a spec chassis with an off the shelf Judd engine??
I’m honestly not sure,
"In downforce we trust"

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Andres125sx
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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Do any of those cars have any connection with the Valkirie?

Then do not derail the thread please, I know some of you don´t like the Valkyrie, but some of us do like it and will be grateful if you keep this Valkyrie thread on topic

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djos
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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Andres125sx wrote:
21 Aug 2022, 13:10
Do any of those cars have any connection with the Valkirie?

Then do not derail the thread please, I know some of you don´t like the Valkyrie, but some of us do like it and will be grateful if you keep this Valkyrie thread on topic
Well we were discussing Hypercars with insane Aero, I think the Solus fits in that category:

Image

Image

Image
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Andres125sx
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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djos wrote:
21 Aug 2022, 13:32
Andres125sx wrote:
21 Aug 2022, 13:10
Do any of those cars have any connection with the Valkirie?

Then do not derail the thread please, I know some of you don´t like the Valkyrie, but some of us do like it and will be grateful if you keep this Valkyrie thread on topic
Well we were discussing Hypercars with insane Aero, I think the Solus fits in that category:

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqj ... 200x-1.jpg

https://doubleapex.co.za/wp-content/upl ... T-rear.jpg

https://www.gtplanet.net/wp-content/upl ... GT_006.jpg
Then the title thread should be changed to "hypercars with insane aero", but not sure if the OP opened the thread with that intention

Just_a_fan
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Re: Aston Martin wants hyper-car to be faster than F1 cars

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There is a now a separate thread specifically for the Valkyrie itself rather than this one which was set up to discuss a future project (at the time the Valkyrie was a wish, not a reality).

It does no harm to discuss other stuff in here now that the car is real and has a dedicated thread for the actual car as produced.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.