2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:28 am
Ferrari is an interesting case, the engine has evolved so much, and the version that was used this year, it reminded me of when Honda started in F1, there just wasn't enough MGU-K deployment.

Engine power was there, but it just fell flat.
How do you make such assessment that no F1 related tech person did?
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:28 am
Everyone seems to be confident of decent gains for next year. Mercedes is rumored to be bringing 25-30hp, Honda says 35-40hp?!?!*, Ferrari says it believes 30hp for the start of the season is within reach.
As far as I know, start of the season is the end of it. They only get one new PU for this year. Not sure if they can delay, and use last year's, that would surely mean dragging around last year's chassis for Ferrari.
I can buy such Honda gains, but I'm doubtful there's much to have for Mercedes. They say it cost a lot of effort to even get where they are. I don't think they suddenly found a good chunk of unexplored potential.
(you added an asterisk, but didn't follow up)

As for Honda, I wonder what will happen with that. Andy Cowell and other rumors have died out. RB stated that they wanted to sort it out last year, but they didn't.
I don't know why they can just convince Honda to remain on a cut back budget, with some additional funding from RB. They'll need to keep something up for IndyCar anyway. Let them focus on MGU if their intention to develop EV tech is honest, RB can hire people (and/or pay for the current ones) to improve the engine.
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:28 am
In 2025 they should release a documentary series about these engines. The development, and work that went into them really deserves to be told.
Not much chance until they're running hybrid engines, I suspect.

mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:54 am
Maybe Mercedes engine development finally stagnated?
Maybe Andy Cowell left, because he thought there was not much more to extract from the power train??
Yeah, they might have outright determined that there's nothing more to be had, and are just in maintenance mode now.
So supporting an early PU formula change is not surprising.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:54 am
Maybe Mercedes engine development finally stagnated?
Maybe Andy Cowell left, because he thought there was not much more to extract from the power train??
I suspect problems are of a different nature.
Daimler faced a perfect storm being hit by emission cheating fines and then shortly after covid happened. The immediate effect was they could no longer afford contractors and had to introduce recruitment and salary freezes. The UK F1 job market is highly competitive so inevitably they lost engineers to other teams.

Even before all of this happened I mentioned on the forum that several team leaders had left prior to the start of the 2020 season. I speculate that has to do with everyone being pushed hard to deliver the performance jump we saw.

Finally, a very significant proportion of their employees is made up of EU nationals, mainly french, italian and spanish. Again I am speculating but brexit and covid could have pushed them to reevaluate their careers.

I think their greatest strengths so far have been the huge budget and a very strong workforce. Both have been hit hard in 2020.

LM10
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mzso wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:21 am
As far as I know, start of the season is the end of it. They only get one new PU for this year.
Unlike last season, there will be one in-season PU upgrade available in 2021.

mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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LM10 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:55 am
mzso wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:21 am
As far as I know, start of the season is the end of it. They only get one new PU for this year.
Unlike last season, there will be one in-season PU upgrade available in 2021.
I remember one new for the whole season.

tangodjango
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:58 am
The only numbers going around in the press are +40 hp Honda and +30 hp Ferrari. Not sure where the Merc numbers are coming from but I don't think their engine development is going very well.
Unfortunately as of this year I no longer have any contacts in Brixworth - all of the folks I know are either contractors who were laid off in spring or permies who burnt out and left.
What about the info you posted earlier regarding a new intake layout bringing a significant chunk of power
“Hamilton’s talent is perhaps even more than that of Ayrton or Schumacher or Fernando." - Rubens Barrichello

LM10
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mzso wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:53 am
LM10 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:55 am
mzso wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:21 am
As far as I know, start of the season is the end of it. They only get one new PU for this year.
Unlike last season, there will be one in-season PU upgrade available in 2021.
I remember one new for the whole season.
You're remembering wrong.

mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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LM10 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:57 pm
You're remembering wrong.
Well, I guess the situation is not as dire for Ferrari as I thought. Probably good for RB as well.

LM10
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mzso wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:33 pm
LM10 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 2:57 pm
You're remembering wrong.
Well, I guess the situation is not as dire for Ferrari as I thought. Probably good for RB as well.
As Ferrari isn't going to fight for the championship in 2021 anyway, only one PU for the whole season would have not been a big setback either.
What they definitely need to sort out, however, is an as competitive PU as possible for at the latest 2022 and onwards.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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tangodjango wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:20 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:58 am
The only numbers going around in the press are +40 hp Honda and +30 hp Ferrari. Not sure where the Merc numbers are coming from but I don't think their engine development is going very well.
Unfortunately as of this year I no longer have any contacts in Brixworth - all of the folks I know are either contractors who were laid off in spring or permies who burnt out and left.
What about the info you posted earlier regarding a new intake layout bringing a significant chunk of power
Unfortunately I have no clue how much that brings, was just told it was a good step.
The comment that things are not going well mostly refers to the engine business in general as I've explained in further posts. My guess is these issues will eventually filter down to the finished product.

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lio007
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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I wonder why it is more or less not discussed that the manufacturers are allowed to skip the wastegate and wastegate pipes this year.
Or are the effects so small and Honda, Ren, Merc and Ferrari are fine with their current solutions?

As you can see here in the 2021-tech regs: the wording was changed to "if a wastegate is present"
5.8.2 Engine exhaust systems must have only a single turbine tailpipe exit and, if a wastegate is
present
, either one or two wastegate tailpipe exits which must all be rearward facing and
through which all exhaust gases must pass. All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must
pass through the turbine tailpipe and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass
through the wastegate tailpipe(s). None of the tailpipes may be contained within any of the
other tailpipes.

5.8.3 The cross-sectional area of the turbine tailpipe exit at the rearmost point of the turbine
tailpipe must lie between 7500mm2 and 14000mm2, and the total cross-sectional area of the
wastegate tailpipe exit(s), if a wastegate is present, at the rearmost point of the wastegate
tailpipe(s) must lie between 1590mm2 and 2375mm2. If there are two wastegate tailpipe
exits they must be equal in area.
Compared to 2020-tech regs:
5.8.2 Engine exhaust systems must have only a single turbine tailpipe exit and either one or two
wastegate tailpipe exits which must all be rearward facing and through which all exhaust
gases must pass. All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must pass through the turbine
tailpipe and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass through the wastegate
tailpipe(s). None of the tailpipes may be contained within any of the other tailpipes.

5.8.3 The cross-sectional area of the turbine tailpipe exit at the rearmost point of the turbine
tailpipe must lie between 7500mm2 and 14000mm2, and the total cross-sectional area of the
wastegate tailpipe exit(s) at the rearmost point of the wastegate tailpipe(s) must lie between
1590mm2 and 2375mm2. If there are two wastegate tailpipe exits they must be equal in
area.

toraabe
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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toraabe wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:53 pm
https://f1i.com/news/395607-are-sauber- ... -2022.html

Couldn't be better
Would they not lose out financially buy a considerable amount?
Unless the renault engine comes with an attached sponsor.

Edit
Nissan?, I seem to recall a few months back hearing Juke being spoken of as a brand in the way 'mini' and '500' are
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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lio007 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:55 am
I wonder why it is more or less not discussed that the manufacturers are allowed to skip the wastegate and wastegate pipes this year.
Or are the effects so small and Honda, Ren, Merc and Ferrari are fine with their current solutions?

As you can see here in the 2021-tech regs: the wording was changed to "if a wastegate is present"
5.8.2 Engine exhaust systems must have only a single turbine tailpipe exit and, if a wastegate is
present
, either one or two wastegate tailpipe exits which must all be rearward facing and
through which all exhaust gases must pass. All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must
pass through the turbine tailpipe and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass
through the wastegate tailpipe(s). None of the tailpipes may be contained within any of the
other tailpipes.

5.8.3 The cross-sectional area of the turbine tailpipe exit at the rearmost point of the turbine
tailpipe must lie between 7500mm2 and 14000mm2, and the total cross-sectional area of the
wastegate tailpipe exit(s), if a wastegate is present, at the rearmost point of the wastegate
tailpipe(s) must lie between 1590mm2 and 2375mm2. If there are two wastegate tailpipe
exits they must be equal in area.
Compared to 2020-tech regs:
5.8.2 Engine exhaust systems must have only a single turbine tailpipe exit and either one or two
wastegate tailpipe exits which must all be rearward facing and through which all exhaust
gases must pass. All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must pass through the turbine
tailpipe and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass through the wastegate
tailpipe(s). None of the tailpipes may be contained within any of the other tailpipes.

5.8.3 The cross-sectional area of the turbine tailpipe exit at the rearmost point of the turbine
tailpipe must lie between 7500mm2 and 14000mm2, and the total cross-sectional area of the
wastegate tailpipe exit(s) at the rearmost point of the wastegate tailpipe(s) must lie between
1590mm2 and 2375mm2. If there are two wastegate tailpipe exits they must be equal in
area.
Well, what would be the benefit of doing this?
Sure, in theory since there are no special mappings for qualifing allowed anymore you could argue that a wastegate isn't an absolute necessity. On the other hand there's still the "overtake/attack" button available which does basically the same thing for a short time.

I don't know how feasible it is, but the only way i can imagine they could potentially get around a wastegate is to use the MGU-H to "overrev" the turbo in "attack" mode, basically rev the turbo higher than it would go naturally by the exhaust gases and so decrease back pressure by "sucking it empty". But as i said, i don't know if this is really something which would work.

gruntguru
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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"Over-revving" the turbo will increase back pressure unfortunately - unless you have an axial flow turbine.
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