2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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basti313
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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turbof1 wrote:
basti313 wrote:
turbof1 wrote: I can agree with that, but the ruling is still a joke in my eyes. They gave Button a penalty because the team wanted to save his car, but Verstappen who weaved off Raikkonen's endplate was not even considered for investigation. Either you more lenient across the whole line, or more stringent across the whole line. Trying to punish an understandable message to get rid of a terminal problem, but neglecting a driver incident does not fit that.
You are mixing up "rules" and "judging". Button's penalty is a stupidity in the rules, Ves vs. Rai is soft judging.
I am not mixing them up. I am taking rules and judging as a whole.
I do not think this is reasonable.
turbof1 wrote:Either you apply regulation stringely, or you don't.
The crashing and driving an opponent off the track was never taken stringently as there is a wide grey area. On the other hand they announced zero tolerance rules for radio and track limits this weekend to take away the grey area there.
turbof1 wrote:It's like in soccer: it is written you need to give a yellow card for hitting a player with a stretched leg during a tackle, but it is not applied everytime.
Soccer is a good example. Like you say, you can break the leg of an opponent without getting a card...on the other hand there is the zero tolerance rule for lifting your shirt. Some rules need judging, some do not allow judging, they cause a definite penalty.
turbof1 wrote:But in my eyes that same curtesy of leniency should also have been given to Button.
How can they give him no penalty when they call out "zero tolerance" just before. I think that would have been even more of a joke.
No the error was on the race engineer: They pitted Button not in the lap with the radio comm, but a lap later. Clear rule violation. I did not get why they did this stupidity.

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turbof1
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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basti313 wrote:
turbof1 wrote:Either you apply regulation stringely, or you don't.
The crashing and driving an opponent off the track was never taken stringently as there is a wide grey area. On the other hand they announced zero tolerance rules for radio and track limits this weekend to take away the grey area there.
This is where I disagree because it was clear on the camera of Raikkonen Verstappen made 2 moves instead of 1, which regulation prohibits. I don't feel this is a grey case.
I do not think this is reasonable.
Regulation and application of regulation are shackles in the same chain: one cannot do without the other. From my standpoints the 3 cases I presented in my previous posts are situations which are black and white measurable from a regulation viewpoint. It's up to the stewards to apply them, or not. Just if you are going to be reasonable or the contrary unreasonable, be consistent in that.
How can they give him no penalty when they call out "zero tolerance" just before. I think that would have been even more of a joke.
The words "zero tolerance" have been used so many times before in the past. I think too for the yellow flags, yet application is still unconsistent. If they really want to be zero tolerant: fine. But be zero tolerant across the whole line. Or be tolerant across the whole line.
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DeanHP
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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"Not a very respectful move from him, I have to say. I've spoken to him in the past - he's the world champion but he shouldn't do these kinds of things, he should respect all of the competitors.

"You never know, maybe in the future I will be fighting [for] the championship with him so he has to respect that."
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gutie ... re-802019/

What did you all think of Gutierrez vs Hamilton? I thought flipping the bird was fair enough! :lol:

Hamilton lost a lot of time due to him.

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turbof1
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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DeanHP wrote:
"Not a very respectful move from him, I have to say. I've spoken to him in the past - he's the world champion but he shouldn't do these kinds of things, he should respect all of the competitors.

"You never know, maybe in the future I will be fighting [for] the championship with him so he has to respect that."
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gutie ... re-802019/

What did you all think of Gutierrez vs Hamilton? I thought flipping the bird was fair enough! :lol:

Hamilton lost a lot of time due to him.
If he was stuck behind for much of the lap, then the frustation looks be justified. Aren't they making too much fuss about this either way? It's just a middle finger.

Here's footage of it: http://www.blick.ch/sport/formel1/stink ... 02141.html
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siskue2005
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Well, the gap from Lewis to Nico was 2.4 sec when Lewis caught Gut in turn 1, and it took an entire lap from Gut to let him through and Nico was just 0.6 sec when finally Gut let them both together into turn 1.... i dont think it would take an entire lap to let the leaders go by. The rule clearly states 3 blue flags to move over.

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Shrieker
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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I power napped on the couch throughout like 2/3rds of the race. Unfortunately the only exciting parts were the start, and the first two corners.

I think this track needs an extension to the stretch just before the last corner. Add another 150 meters to it (i think there is space) , and make the last corner sharp like the first one, I'm sure we'll see a lot more action.
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GrandAxe
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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What about Lewis driving so slowly and getting on the radio to complain that he was struggling for pace until Merc warned him to either pick up speed or they would pit Nico first? Next lap, Lewis was a full second faster.

Could that have engine saving, pushing Nico into Ricciardo, or an attempt to destroy Nico's tyres?

basti313
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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turbof1 wrote:
DeanHP wrote:
"Not a very respectful move from him, I have to say. I've spoken to him in the past - he's the world champion but he shouldn't do these kinds of things, he should respect all of the competitors.

"You never know, maybe in the future I will be fighting [for] the championship with him so he has to respect that."
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/gutie ... re-802019/

What did you all think of Gutierrez vs Hamilton? I thought flipping the bird was fair enough! :lol:

Hamilton lost a lot of time due to him.
If he was stuck behind for much of the lap, then the frustation looks be justified. Aren't they making too much fuss about this either way? It's just a middle finger.

Here's footage of it: http://www.blick.ch/sport/formel1/stink ... 02141.html
I think we need two rule clarifications. One to clarify how much time needs to be lost on a yellow flag and one how much time lost allows a middle finger. :D
siskue2005 wrote:Well, the gap from Lewis to Nico was 2.4 sec when Lewis caught Gut in turn 1, and it took an entire lap from Gut to let him through and Nico was just 0.6 sec when finally Gut let them both together into turn 1.... i dont think it would take an entire lap to let the leaders go by. The rule clearly states 3 blue flags to move over.
Do not discuss with wrong numbers. The time loss was exactly 1.15 sec in lap 52 for Ham's lap behind Gut and Ros lost 0.3 sec in the first corner of lap 53 for his pass. Gut was only a second slower than the Mercs, that made the lapping difficult.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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GrandAxe wrote:What about Lewis driving so slowly and getting on the radio to complain that he was struggling for pace until Merc warned him to either pick up speed or they would pit Nico first? Next lap, Lewis was a full second faster.

Could that have engine saving, pushing Nico into Ricciardo, or an attempt to destroy Nico's tyres?
Engine saving I would think. Hamilton appeared to be able to keep the gap just over 1s most of the time. Rosberg wasn't able to push Hamilton to go harder because of the nature of the track. Hamilton always seemed to be able to pull it back in S3 to keep out of DRS.
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basti313
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Just_a_fan wrote:
GrandAxe wrote:What about Lewis driving so slowly and getting on the radio to complain that he was struggling for pace until Merc warned him to either pick up speed or they would pit Nico first? Next lap, Lewis was a full second faster.

Could that have engine saving, pushing Nico into Ricciardo, or an attempt to destroy Nico's tyres?
Engine saving I would think. Hamilton appeared to be able to keep the gap just over 1s most of the time. Rosberg wasn't able to push Hamilton to go harder because of the nature of the track. Hamilton always seemed to be able to pull it back in S3 to keep out of DRS.
Engine saving is the opposite: Be fast in S2, slow on the straight.

Moose
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Spoutnik wrote:Mercedes advantage is clearly on energy deployments. A good engine is not only based speed trap at the end of the main straight but also on the quality of the ERS which permit a better/more balanced brake because as I can seen on the oboard the Mercedes are the cars with the most stabel/efficient braking system and that's certainly why he overheat so often. Plus their energy deployment allowed them a really good traction. Also the strat.1 mode is so impressive in Q3 I mean in Silverstone from Q2 to Q3 they up their pace by +1second. This better engine means also most of the performance come from him, and not the chassis (like Red Bull) so = lesser tires deg with a less aggressive setup, a better braking stability, and a better use of the 100kg of fuel (maybe they start the race with less fuel than the others).
Alternatively, it could simply be that they have a better chassis and aerodynamic design than anyone else. The whole field seems to pretty much universally agree these days that the Ferrari engine is right up there with Merc's, and that Renault's is not far behind any more. Mercedes have simply done a better job aerodynamically than anyone else in this generation.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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basti313 wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:
GrandAxe wrote:What about Lewis driving so slowly and getting on the radio to complain that he was struggling for pace until Merc warned him to either pick up speed or they would pit Nico first? Next lap, Lewis was a full second faster.

Could that have engine saving, pushing Nico into Ricciardo, or an attempt to destroy Nico's tyres?
Engine saving I would think. Hamilton appeared to be able to keep the gap just over 1s most of the time. Rosberg wasn't able to push Hamilton to go harder because of the nature of the track. Hamilton always seemed to be able to pull it back in S3 to keep out of DRS.
Engine saving is the opposite: Be fast in S2, slow on the straight.
He has to be quick enough on the straight to avoid allowing the following car to catch up. Back off the throttle a little earlier in to T1 still helps the engine over all. Roll through the twisties with slightly less punch off each corner is also still helping the engine.
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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He was engine saving. He said it himself. And he gapped Nico in the final 3 turns to make sure he wasn't is DRS range.
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TAG
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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basti313 wrote:Do not discuss with wrong numbers. The time loss was exactly 1.15 sec in lap 52 for Ham's lap behind Gut and Ros lost 0.3 sec in the first corner of lap 53 for his pass. Gut was only a second slower than the Mercs, that made the lapping difficult.
Irrelevant if you're being lapped and have blue flags waving, it's why he got the five second penalty.
GrandAxe wrote:What about Lewis driving so slowly and getting on the radio to complain that he was struggling for pace until Merc warned him to either pick up speed or they would pit Nico first? Next lap, Lewis was a full second faster.

Could that have engine saving, pushing Nico into Ricciardo, or an attempt to destroy Nico's tyres?
It's called racecraft by utterly controlling the race from the front. When Nico does it it tends to end in contact. :P
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munudeges
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Moose wrote:The whole field seems to pretty much universally agree these days that the Ferrari engine is right up there with Merc's, and that Renault's is not far behind any more.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: