2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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ds.raikkonen wrote:@GPR-A: go through the posts in the previous pages before barging in and comment. People have agreed Verstappen's defensive moves are borderline dangerous, if not down right illegal. That's why he escaped an investigation. Having seen F1 and WEC for a long time, I've never seen anyone defending that furiously. It will cost someone their front wing in some race.
I don't need go through all that usual BS. I have posted the video and I don't think there is anything to debate really. The last year and this, Kimi has been a very messy driver and hence he himself is responsible for what happened. He doesn't have it anymore to fight tooth and nail, fair and square. Probably Spanish GP's frustration also played a part.

Jolle
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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It was "annoy Nico" mode for Hamilton after the race, with statements about the grid girls, that he detuned the PU and a big "double yellow", where he got everybody to join in.
Not Rosberg's nicest weekend, he got a new contract but Hamilton played the "I've got you covered" message out loud and clear. Fun to watch!

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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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GPR-A wrote:I can't follow the stupidity here. How is this a double move? Verstappen moved to his right and then came back to left, then never moved again while cornering. If anything, Kimi was being very stupid there trying to go right, then come left and then go right again. Trying to go down the inside, Kimi would have simply T-boned Max. There was no way to dive inside there and come out clean with the kind of speed that he was trying to carry. It's plain as daylight that Kimi was being too ambitious. Ferrari clearly know there was no issue and hence they didn't lodged a complaint, protest or something. Looking at the video below, no one can protest.

In all Hungarian GPs, the driver defending, tries to take inside line into that corner first, leaving outside open and then closes back after making the corner. It was exactly what Max was doing. Kimi was trying to sell a dummy with that double move and failed miserably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TNlraWB_y4

This is what Kimi would have done if he moved inside. That he did to Bottas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDLpyZ1MjxU
It's a tricky clever one, if this is the move at least everybody is talking about (there were several overtaking moves)

He did move twice, once to the outside and once to the inside. The clever bit is that the second move was combined with "corner entry".
Plus it looked very dramatic from Raikkonens car with his own weaving, trying to go past.

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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Jolle wrote:He did move twice, once to the outside and once to the inside. The clever bit is that the second move was combined with "corner entry".
Plus it looked very dramatic from Raikkonens car with his own weaving, trying to go past.
Please read the rules. One defensive move is, moving to right (or left - straying away from racing line) and then coming back to left (or right - coming back to racing line). That is one move and that is allowed.

Jolle
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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GPR-A wrote:
Jolle wrote:He did move twice, once to the outside and once to the inside. The clever bit is that the second move was combined with "corner entry".
Plus it looked very dramatic from Raikkonens car with his own weaving, trying to go past.
Please read the rules. One defensive move is, moving to right (or left - straying away from racing line) and then coming back to left (or right - coming back to racing line). That is one move and that is allowed.
I am/was agreeing with you, he timed it well and what right on the edge.

mrluke
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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RedNEO wrote:
mrluke wrote:
RedNEO wrote:
Show me quotes of of them saying the chassis is as good as the redbull or it didn't happen.
http://www.grandprix247.com/2016/05/24/ ... n-ferrari/
“Now it is Mercedes, Red Bull, us, and then Ferrari, Toro Rosso and Williams. They are clearly behind today,” ventured Boullier.

The first 3 pages of google are about the Barcelona / Monaco claims. Im sure there was talk around silverstone last year of Mclaren being 2nd only to Mercedes "in the corners"
You've successfully showed me a quote of them saying there chassis is below Redbulls so well done on proving my point.
My statement" Mclaren as good as rbr," is not at all supported by a quote from boullier saying they are fighting with rbr for second best chassis.

I guess if you want to interpret "as good as" into exactly identical rather than competing with then enjoy arguing semantics.

Jolle
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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mrluke wrote:
RedNEO wrote:
mrluke wrote:
http://www.grandprix247.com/2016/05/24/ ... n-ferrari/
“Now it is Mercedes, Red Bull, us, and then Ferrari, Toro Rosso and Williams. They are clearly behind today,” ventured Boullier.

The first 3 pages of google are about the Barcelona / Monaco claims. Im sure there was talk around silverstone last year of Mclaren being 2nd only to Mercedes "in the corners"
You've successfully showed me a quote of them saying there chassis is below Redbulls so well done on proving my point.
My statement" Mclaren as good as rbr," is not at all supported by a quote from boullier saying they are fighting with rbr for second best chassis.

I guess if you want to interpret "as good as" into exactly identical rather than competing with then enjoy arguing semantics.
Top tip: never believe a statement like that from a team manager, especially when they are not performing like they should. There is too much involved to be honest.
If Boullier states that they are as good as RB, the message is: you can invest in us as a sponsor, because it's still Hondas fault. The way the drivers are complaining sometimes (no balance, etc etc) it looks like they are still way off a RedBull/Mercedes like bulletproof chassis. A wild guess would be that they are at least 3 tents behind RB on chassis at the moment.

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ds.raikkonen
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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GPR-A wrote:
Jolle wrote:He did move twice, once to the outside and once to the inside. The clever bit is that the second move was combined with "corner entry".
Plus it looked very dramatic from Raikkonens car with his own weaving, trying to go past.
Please read the rules. One defensive move is, moving to right (or left - straying away from racing line) and then coming back to left (or right - coming back to racing line). That is one move and that is allowed.
Again, it's not about adherence to the 'rules', his moves are made way too late/just before corner entry. THAT'S THE POINT.
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC

Jolle
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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ds.raikkonen wrote:
GPR-A wrote:
Jolle wrote:He did move twice, once to the outside and once to the inside. The clever bit is that the second move was combined with "corner entry".
Plus it looked very dramatic from Raikkonens car with his own weaving, trying to go past.
Please read the rules. One defensive move is, moving to right (or left - straying away from racing line) and then coming back to left (or right - coming back to racing line). That is one move and that is allowed.
Again, it's not about adherence to the 'rules', his moves are made way too late/just before corner entry. THAT'S THE POINT.
He goes to the outside (move one), stays there for a couple of meters and then steers straight to the apex.

It's a clever move. The only other option would be, after the first move, stayed on the outside longer and have a late turn in, opening the door and having Kimi's nose sticking in his side pod. He almost did him a favour :P

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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hollus wrote:But Raikonnen wasn't "there". Think of what part of his car he lost as proof, impossible if he was "already there" in the outside.
Cars don't have instantaneous stopping power.

This is to some degree similar to what caused the incident in Barcelona too. Car B behind closing in on Car A. Car B has two choices; go to the inside or attempt a move around the outside. This decision is for the most part dictated by Car A. Does he choose to cover the inside or the outside? If Car A blocks the inside, then Car B can attempt to go around the outside, at the expense of taking the longer way around and having the "door close on corner exit". If Car A goes to the outside, Car B will go to the inside, go in deep and then shut the door on corner exit.

From those two scenarios, the chances on a successful pass is statistically a lot higher if Car A allows Car B to go for the inside, which is why Car A will always, always try to cover the inside. Doing so is not without a draw back however - if you cover the inside, you are compromising your corner exit speed as you are shortening the radius of the corner significantly. Because of this, Car A, covering the inside will always want to move back to the racing line to be able to carry more speed into the corner and not compromise his exit too much.

Usually when Car B passes Car A on the inside, it's because Car A failed to cover the inside. This happens more often than one would think, because Car A might not always be looking in his rear-mirrors to see if the car behind is attempting an overtake. It's completely at the discretion of Car A. "Is he close enough to attempt a pass? Do I need to defend, cover the inside and compromise my corner entry (and lose time) or am I safe to stay on the racing line because my attacker is too far off to attempt a pass?".

The problem with where this incident took place was because it was between two corners. Verstappen came out, closer to the inside of the upcoming left-hander. Kimi had momentum, coming in fast. There was space on the ouside. Then Verstappen made a decisive move, jerked the wheel to the right and completely blocked the outside (this was Verstappen moving onto the racing line). Kimi jumped at this move and probably shouted "thank you" for leaving the door open on the inside. He dived into that gap, but then Verstappen closed that gap too by aiming for the apex which then prompted Kimi having to take avoiding action by turning to the right and hitting Verstappen in the process.

What's important to note is that cars don't have instantaneous stopping power. There is a point at which a driver commits to a move. Past that point, there's no way you will successfully stop your car without hitting the car in front. This was the case with Kimi - he was carrying a lot more speed and when you are this close, it's important that cars/drivers make decisive moves - either cover the inside or the outside, but not change direction mid corner to "get back onto the racing line". This is what ultimately caused the collision.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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ds.raikkonen wrote:
GPR-A wrote:
Jolle wrote:He did move twice, once to the outside and once to the inside. The clever bit is that the second move was combined with "corner entry".
Plus it looked very dramatic from Raikkonens car with his own weaving, trying to go past.
Please read the rules. One defensive move is, moving to right (or left - straying away from racing line) and then coming back to left (or right - coming back to racing line). That is one move and that is allowed.
Again, it's not about adherence to the 'rules', his moves are made way too late/just before corner entry. THAT'S THE POINT.
Then you are arguing for a non-existent, fancy and out of the racing rule book issue. The run down from Turn 1 to Turn 2 is hardly a stretch, so WHAT IS TOO LATE, itself is questionable and arguable.

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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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GPR-A wrote:
ds.raikkonen wrote:
GPR-A wrote:Please read the rules. One defensive move is, moving to right (or left - straying away from racing line) and then coming back to left (or right - coming back to racing line). That is one move and that is allowed.
Again, it's not about adherence to the 'rules', his moves are made way too late/just before corner entry. THAT'S THE POINT.
Then you are arguing for a non-existent, fancy and out of the racing rule book issue. The run down from Turn 1 to Turn 2 is hardly a stretch, so WHAT IS TOO LATE, itself is questionable and arguable.
I think too late is when you are well into the braking for the corner. I don't think there has ever needed to be a rule for this, because the drivers just understood that you pick your line before braking and drive to the apex. It's a good way of defending and at the moment borderline but within the rules, it will end in tears though.

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SiLo
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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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GPR-A wrote:
ds.raikkonen wrote:
GPR-A wrote:Please read the rules. One defensive move is, moving to right (or left - straying away from racing line) and then coming back to left (or right - coming back to racing line). That is one move and that is allowed.
Again, it's not about adherence to the 'rules', his moves are made way too late/just before corner entry. THAT'S THE POINT.
Then you are arguing for a non-existent, fancy and out of the racing rule book issue. The run down from Turn 1 to Turn 2 is hardly a stretch, so WHAT IS TOO LATE, itself is questionable and arguable.
He made two moves, very quickly. If he hadn't made two, Kimi would have sold him the dummy.

He also doesn't "move back to the racing line". The racing line is in the middle of that corner mostly, not where he was. You'll also notice after his second move he goes straight for a few metres before turning into the corner.
Felipe Baby!

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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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It's a bit touch and go regarding VES/RAI. In my opinion both moves are on the limit of being acceptable, I guess it's up to who you support. In the first incident VES moves back to the racing line perhaps a touch too early/much to carry some speed into the corner, at the same time it's poor execution of a dummy move by RAI (way to close), probably frustrated at his failure to position himself in the corner before after the straight (he would've had him there IMO). The second move is even more difficult to judge. It's more or less a do or die move by both of them braking extremely late. If you focus on VES during braking for this corner it's just one smooth move towards the apex, no swerving, so as far as I see the responsibility of the guy behind. My opinion on the matter: boring hungaroring. You need twice the grip of the guy in front to get past (RAI/ALO) or very extreme measures. It was great to see RAI try as hard as he could, as it gave the race at least some excitement. Any other circuit and it wouldn't have been a problem.

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Re: 2016 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 22-24 July

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SiLo wrote:
GPR-A wrote:
ds.raikkonen wrote: Again, it's not about adherence to the 'rules', his moves are made way too late/just before corner entry. THAT'S THE POINT.
Then you are arguing for a non-existent, fancy and out of the racing rule book issue. The run down from Turn 1 to Turn 2 is hardly a stretch, so WHAT IS TOO LATE, itself is questionable and arguable.
He made two moves, very quickly. If he hadn't made two, Kimi would have sold him the dummy.

He also doesn't "move back to the racing line". The racing line is in the middle of that corner mostly, not where he was. You'll also notice after his second move he goes straight for a few metres before turning into the corner.
Precisely, so skip one + one move argument. First move was borderline itself, too late, second was unacceptable, together and in combination with space and speed = that's nowhere near clean driving. Raikkonen swerving? No, just reacting to chaos in front.

You know FIA is cheating when they don't even investigate and you know why. If they added any replays and telemetry they'd have to give a penalty so it's best to pretend nothing happened. Red Bull bonus. Raikkonen complaining about rules enforcing after getting away with dozens of penalties is funny. I also like how other drivers are distanced (Vettel) or silent when you know that if it happened to them they'd be whining and calling Whiting.

As for mastermind Hamilton (I smell Sky's copy/paste) Was he going off or driving slower than Rosberg later on purpose? This possible period was brief - the clue is in the radio messages and lack of purpose.