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Torque vs Energy. Same units, not the same thing
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:19
by Cold Fussion
FoxHound wrote:Cold Fussion wrote:FoxHound wrote:My bet is the Mercedes is more powerful in both torque figures and bhp. And as the simplest definition(there's a thread on this...lots of opinions) for the relation is Power = the rate at which bhp delivers it's torque. Explained to me by a Honda technician(Yuasa racing).... A diesel has 200nm torque and can deliver that at a rate of 150bhp, versus a Petrol with 120nm torque that can deliver it at 170bhp. The diesel would be superior if the cars were of similar mass, size etc.
I would love to see the results from a laptime simulator where you subtract 12% of the power from one car. I have a sneaky suspicion that it won't say the less powerful car is faster.
Is torque not power?
No.
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:24
by dans79
FoxHound wrote:
Is torque not power?
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:25
by SameSame
Power = Angular velocity x Torque. I always find it interesting when units of N.m and bhp are used together
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:40
by SameSame
dans79 wrote:FoxHound wrote:
Is torque not power?
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:49
by Jolle
SameSame wrote:dans79 wrote:FoxHound wrote:
Is torque not power?
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
No...
Torque is the amount of force (in newton) that is applied to the end of a one meter long beam attached to the crankshaft.
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:50
by mrluke
SameSame wrote:dans79 wrote:FoxHound wrote:
Is torque not power?
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
It is, until he made the conclusion that the car which had less power would be faster over a lap.
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:53
by SameSame
Jolle wrote:SameSame wrote:dans79 wrote:
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
No...
Torque is the amount of force (in newton) that is applied to the end of a one meter long beam attached to the crankshaft.
Which is N x m… This is really basic
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:55
by SameSame
mrluke wrote:SameSame wrote:dans79 wrote:
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
It is, until he made the conclusion that the car which had less power would be faster over a lap.
I agree that that last part isn't true.
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 19:57
by Cold Fussion
SameSame wrote:dans79 wrote:FoxHound wrote:
Is torque not power?
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and
N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
Are you saying torque is energy?
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 20:00
by dans79
Jolle wrote:SameSame wrote:dans79 wrote:
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
No...
Torque is the amount of force (in newton) that is applied to the end of a one meter long beam attached to the crankshaft.
He is correct its units are N.m that was my mistake, and i should know better because a decade and a half ago I got a B.S. in physics.
N.m = J is incorrect though, because it does not account for time properly (s).
1 N = 1 kg ⋅ m/s^2
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 20:01
by SameSame
Cold Fussion wrote:SameSame wrote:dans79 wrote:
No, torque is a measurement of force over a distance (N/m), power is energy over time (J/s).
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and
N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
Are you saying torque is energy?
Indeed I am. Think about power. rad/s (angular velocity) x N.m (Torque) = J/s. (A radian is dimensionless)
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 20:06
by SameSame
Energy is force multiplied by distance i.e. Work
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 20:07
by Jolle
dans79 wrote:Jolle wrote:SameSame wrote:
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
No...
Torque is the amount of force (in newton) that is applied to the end of a one meter long beam attached to the crankshaft.
He is correct its units are N.m that was my mistake, and i should know better because a decade and a half ago I got a B.S. in physics.
N.m = J is incorrect though, because it does not account for time properly (s).
1 N = 1 kg ⋅ m/s^2
And that's why with the old engines revs are the holy grail. Revolutions are time and distance, combined with torque (force) makes power.
Torque vs Energy. Same units, not the same thing
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 20:07
by SameSame
Although admittedly they are not the "same" thing
Re: 2016 Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team - Mercedes
Posted: 08 Aug 2016, 20:09
by Cold Fussion
SameSame wrote:Cold Fussion wrote:SameSame wrote:
Torque is N.m an not N/m… and N.m = J so power is basically the rate at which the torque is delivered, which is perfectly in line with what FoxHound said.
Are you saying torque is energy?
Indeed I am. Think about power. rad/s (angular velocity) x N.m (Torque) = J/s. (A radian is dimensionless)
Oh dear. On an unrelated topic, do you know where I can purchase one of these?
Bhall It's happening again.