Oil as fuel

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Phil
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Quoting myself from the Monza race topic, as it's relevant to this topic too:

Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:48 pm
So according to AMuS; the engine situation is as follows:

- the engine Haas is using is a specification 3 engine. Ferrari engine 4 has not been homolgated yet. According to sources, Ferrari is unable to find the expected performance increase on the dyno, so has pushed the introduction of the new engine back. Haas's 4th engine is therefore specification 3. If they want the newer engine, they will have to take a 5th engine.

- Mercedes has its version 4 engine (3.1 they call it) since Spa. That means that all customer teams will also get that one. Due to not having enough ready, Force-India and Williams will have to wait. They can either have 1 engine each in the next race or wait until Mercedes is ready to supply them with 2.

- Mercedes and Ferrari spoke to each other because Ferrari felt cheated due to Mercedes bringing its new engine in Spa. Apparently the 0.9l/100 directive is a bit ambiguous because it just speaks of engines and not engine-specification. One could interpret it to mean that Mercedes could use the old directive because their engine is already in the pool. On the other hand, it could be understood to mean that all engines must confirm to the new directive as of Monza. Because Mercedes felt it to mean the latter, they built the engine to work under the new directive of 0.9l, as the customer teams who have not used the engine yet will have to.***

- apparently the oil directive is being exaggerated and more relevant for qualifying. For qualifying, they use a thinner oil to achieve less wear. It's not about additives in the oils either. Apparently they can achieve up to 5hp like this. For the race, a thicker oil is used because it helps fuel efficiency due to better sealing of the cylinders and helps the longevity of the engine.

- The FIA has no means to measure the oil usage accurately. They use an oil stick, probably by measuring before the race and after to get a good indication of the usage. There is some tolerance for this reason. The FIA is working on better methods to measure it more accurately. By 2018, only 0.6 of oil will be allowed to be used and only one specification for the entire weekend.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 20994.html

(translated by best-effort).


*** (My speculation): Maybe Mercedes introduced specification 4 to have the ability to use the older models for other races under the old oil directive where it's necessary. No one dictates which engine has to be used at which venue. From what I understand, Mercedes has now 4 engine specifications in the pool. 3 under the 1.2l rule, the latest under 0.9l. Depending on usage, they could still use some of the older specs where it might be advantageous?
Phil
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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hardingfv32
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:49 pm
For qualifying, they use a thinner oil to achieve less wear. It's not about additives in the oils either. Apparently they can achieve up to 5hp like this. For the race, a thicker oil is used because it helps fuel efficiency due to better sealing of the cylinders and helps the longevity of the engine.
1) While I agree that with the premise of thinner oil for qualifying… thinner oil does not reduce wear. Also I have never seen any research related to ring sealing qualities vs viscosity. It would be my assumption that lower viscosity reduces friction (more power) at a rate that is faster than the ring/cylinder wall seal degrades. I would use the OEM's constant movement towards lower viscosity lubricants as an example. In my own dyno testing lower viscosity oil always creates more power… with all other features of the engine being the same.

2) It seems odd that if this is only about the use of qualifying oil…. why has the FIA not just restricted the teams to one spec of oil per event (or maybe per specific engine)? They allowed two specs of oil per event… what is the technical requirement for this specification?

Brian

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Phil
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Re: Oil as fuel

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From what I gather, this is planned for next year, but wasn't done this year as it would be too harsh for those that rely on it (or something to that extent)...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Tipo59/06
Tipo59/06
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Reading this thread we have basically uncovered....nothing Not one team technical person has even acknowledged that oil consumption/or loss even exists..... but where there's smoke there's fire eventually it will come out...and it will likely be very interesting

Take for example the Jet Ignition principle.....we went all through 2014 and everyone tried to come up with some reason why the mercedes engine performed so well.....fuel flowing around the fuel sensor etc and many other factors ...it wasnt until Mahle let Ferrari in on the secret and the word on the street was HCCI but now we know what it really is....

Toto and Mauricio completely denied that oil burning exists for the purpose of power......I say we'll see hopefully sooner than later

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Re: Oil as fuel

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Tipo59/06 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:57 am
Reading this thread we have basically uncovered....nothing Not one team technical person has even acknowledged that oil consumption/or loss even exists..... but where there's smoke there's fire eventually it will come out...and it will likely be very interesting

Take for example the Jet Ignition principle.....we went all through 2014 and everyone tried to come up with some reason why the mercedes engine performed so well.....fuel flowing around the fuel sensor etc and many other factors ...it wasnt until Mahle let Ferrari in on the secret and the word on the street was HCCI but now we know what it really is....

Toto and Mauricio completely denied that oil burning exists for the purpose of power......I say we'll see hopefully sooner than later
Not quite "nothing" - since it was a couple of years back, after the G.P. Canada, that the FIM 1st did oil analysis..
&, oddly perhaps, given the super-lean fuel burn characteristics, which ought to reduce the likelihood of 'dilution'..
.. that assay showed significant levels of fuel-like compounds - were indeed found in the oil..

Subsequently,& sadly normative of typical FIM anal-retentive/control-freak knee-jerk responses to innovation..
..proscriptive addendum rules have been applied to the matter of oil, previously 'free', (incredibly enough)..

& naturally, these ex-post-facto rules are being imposed in a 1/2 arsed, ill-considered way, which adds to the drama..
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"

Edis
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Tipo59/06 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:51 am
100kg/hr of fuel= 43 MJ/kg


I'm not fully convinced that 1.2l or .9l of allowable oil consumption has or could have any effect in terms of adding energy...its too small of an amount for calorific value

Take for eg that a good portion of that allowable oil loss is going to happen anyway to keep the engine alive.....so one cannot factor the full 1.2L in terms of burnable/heat energy...and its a very small amount Perhaps for Q3 for half a lap...but how can you meter it effectively...or atomize it to burn.....and to what effect does it leave a harmful detonation deposit ...particularly on a high pressure boosted engine that's used for 5 races

I'm keeping a open mind but Ive always felt this oil feeding as its currently happening(because it is ) is a migration technique more related to eliminating blow by and providing a sealing effect than for the pure heat energy amount of what is effectively a very small portion of heat energy

just my two cents
That's about three liters for a race, which is not a lot and about the same as what could be seen with the old V8 engines. I think the main problem would be that oil doesn't burn that well, and you want the energy to be released rapidly during combustion. Some oil additives are also promoting engine knock and deposit formation.
hardingfv32 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:03 pm

1) While I agree that with the premise of thinner oil for qualifying… thinner oil does not reduce wear. Also I have never seen any research related to ring sealing qualities vs viscosity. It would be my assumption that lower viscosity reduces friction (more power) at a rate that is faster than the ring/cylinder wall seal degrades. I would use the OEM's constant movement towards lower viscosity lubricants as an example. In my own dyno testing lower viscosity oil always creates more power… with all other features of the engine being the same.

2) It seems odd that if this is only about the use of qualifying oil…. why has the FIA not just restricted the teams to one spec of oil per event (or maybe per specific engine)? They allowed two specs of oil per event… what is the technical requirement for this specification?

Brian
Yes, he has gotten this all wrong. The reason you use (or can use) a thinner oil in qualifying is because it reduce the friction loss at the expense of more wear, or at least a thinner oil film with less margin against metal-to-metal contact. Another reason to use a thinner oil can be because the oil temperature can be lower over a single lap, as it is allowed to cool down a bit between the laps. So to have the same viscosity of the oil in the running engine you need to select a thinner oil. Also, over a single lap thinning of the oil due to unburned fuel ending up in the oil is less of a concern.

hardingfv32
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Tipo59/06 wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:57 am
Reading this thread we have basically uncovered....nothing
Now is that really unusual for this forum? I view this discussing more as an exercise in logic. We are trying to frame the facts that we know into an operating theory of what 'oil burn' might mean related to engine performance. Be assured if history is any indication there is little chance of us learning the truth in the near term even if/after 'oil burn' is banned .

Brian
Last edited by hardingfv32 on Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tipo59/06
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Perhaps my assessment of "nothing" was a bit over the top as I wasnt trying to suggest our viewpoints were not valid .....in fact I apologize for that if I came off the wrong way

It been a issue(oil cons) for a few years now and I'm surprised that exactly whats going on has not been revealed yet in detail......Is it sneaking in some oil and burning it for calorific value plain and simple.....or is it for sealing effect and low friction to reduce blow by ...perhaps its used as a retardant like EGR to reduce combustion chamber temp and being able to up the boost accordingly...maybe a combination of all three ?

eventually the lid will be blown off this development...but why such secrecy ? Oil loss/consump in a hybrid era a no no etc I consider the Jet ignition development quite an achievement and its been uncovered in great detail......but the teams wont even talk about the oil consumption ...well at least not yet

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godlameroso
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Re: Oil as fuel

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How does thicker oil help ring sealing? Are they driving 200,000+ km engines? Most of the ring sealing comes from combustion forcing the top ring outward, thicker oil only helps when the tolerances grow from ring and cylinder wear.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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godlameroso
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Edis wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:14 pm
Tipo59/06 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:51 am
100kg/hr of fuel= 43 MJ/kg


I'm not fully convinced that 1.2l or .9l of allowable oil consumption has or could have any effect in terms of adding energy...its too small of an amount for calorific value

Take for eg that a good portion of that allowable oil loss is going to happen anyway to keep the engine alive.....so one cannot factor the full 1.2L in terms of burnable/heat energy...and its a very small amount Perhaps for Q3 for half a lap...but how can you meter it effectively...or atomize it to burn.....and to what effect does it leave a harmful detonation deposit ...particularly on a high pressure boosted engine that's used for 5 races

I'm keeping a open mind but Ive always felt this oil feeding as its currently happening(because it is ) is a migration technique more related to eliminating blow by and providing a sealing effect than for the pure heat energy amount of what is effectively a very small portion of heat energy

just my two cents
That's about three liters for a race, which is not a lot and about the same as what could be seen with the old V8 engines. I think the main problem would be that oil doesn't burn that well, and you want the energy to be released rapidly during combustion. Some oil additives are also promoting engine knock and deposit formation.
hardingfv32 wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:03 pm

1) While I agree that with the premise of thinner oil for qualifying… thinner oil does not reduce wear. Also I have never seen any research related to ring sealing qualities vs viscosity. It would be my assumption that lower viscosity reduces friction (more power) at a rate that is faster than the ring/cylinder wall seal degrades. I would use the OEM's constant movement towards lower viscosity lubricants as an example. In my own dyno testing lower viscosity oil always creates more power… with all other features of the engine being the same.

2) It seems odd that if this is only about the use of qualifying oil…. why has the FIA not just restricted the teams to one spec of oil per event (or maybe per specific engine)? They allowed two specs of oil per event… what is the technical requirement for this specification?

Brian
Yes, he has gotten this all wrong. The reason you use (or can use) a thinner oil in qualifying is because it reduce the friction loss at the expense of more wear, or at least a thinner oil film with less margin against metal-to-metal contact. Another reason to use a thinner oil can be because the oil temperature can be lower over a single lap, as it is allowed to cool down a bit between the laps. So to have the same viscosity of the oil in the running engine you need to select a thinner oil. Also, over a single lap thinning of the oil due to unburned fuel ending up in the oil is less of a concern.
You don't need a lot of oil, very little in fact. If they're doing what I think they are, you can get away with similar amounts and rates used in diesel engine urea exhaust aftertreatments. ~3% of total fuel volume which is ~135 liters or ~4 liters for a whole race. Notice the oil directive allows 3.6 liters of oil pre Monza and 2.7 liters afterwards.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: Oil as fuel

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godlameroso
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Nope not a chance.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Tipo59/06
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Did we miss something there.........?

sosic2121
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Re: Oil as fuel

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Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:48 pm
it would be too harsh for those that rely on it
rely on it to get pole position?
(nothing personal, just FIA pissing me off)

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Phil
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Re: Oil as fuel

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sosic2121 wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:51 pm
Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:48 pm
it would be too harsh for those that rely on it
rely on it to get pole position?
(nothing personal, just FIA pissing me off)
Burning oil is a bit more complex than that, unfortunately. Under the current set of rules and ability of the FIA to monitor the imposed limits, it's not possible to differentiate between a team and a PU using oil exclusively as a lubricant in an inefficient way versus a team with a more efficient engine using oil for performance under the same sets of limits.

Also would be unfair to impose new limits on already homologated engines that were designed with a certain spec and limits in mind. The FIA is at fault here for not having the foresight to see this coming and prevent it within the rules before the engine makers go and exploit it.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter