2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Artur Craft
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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SameSame wrote:
16 May 2017, 08:53
I'm not sure if you can see the wood from the tree's. Please explain the difference in pace between Merc and Force India. Yes some of it is Mechanical, but it is mostly down to aero.

You do realise that more than half the grid has the same engines as Merc and Ferrari yet they are nowhere? Its aero.
I was talking about cars like Red Bull, STR, Renault, Sauber and Mclaren. But specially Red Bull which would be up there if they had a better PU. Mclaren managed to beat all those Mercedes/Ferrari-powered cars(ok, Alonso must account for a lot of that) despite a horrible engine.

The midfielders have always had inferior aero. Bar Spa 2009, FI never had top aero. Why complain about it now? This gap has been here for a long time, I don't see the point in fixing only the aero discrepancies(due to the complexity of it) and still leaving some teams with inferior PUs.

Finally, don't be so sure that the other cars gets the same PU as Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no draw, so they can easily supply inferior engines to their clients and how can they know if that's the case? For instance, remember on 2014 when Ron Dennis was complaining that Mercedes was supplying them with inferior PUs than the factory Mercedes? :wink:

SameSame
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Artur Craft wrote:
16 May 2017, 09:34
SameSame wrote:
16 May 2017, 08:53
I'm not sure if you can see the wood from the tree's. Please explain the difference in pace between Merc and Force India. Yes some of it is Mechanical, but it is mostly down to aero.

You do realise that more than half the grid has the same engines as Merc and Ferrari yet they are nowhere? Its aero.
I was talking about cars like Red Bull, STR, Renault, Sauber and Mclaren. But specially Red Bull which would be up there if they had a better PU. Mclaren managed to beat all those Mercedes/Ferrari-powered cars(ok, Alonso must account for a lot of that) despite a horrible engine.

The midfielders have always had inferior aero. Bar Spa 2009, FI never had top aero. Why complain about it now? This gap has been here for a long time, I don't see the point in fixing only the aero discrepancies(due to the complexity of it) and still leaving some teams with inferior PUs.

Finally, don't be so sure that the other cars gets the same PU as Ferrari and Mercedes. There is no draw, so they can easily supply inferior engines to their clients and how can they know if that's the case? For instance, remember on 2014 when Ron Dennis was complaining that Mercedes was supplying them with inferior PUs than the factory Mercedes? :wink:
The reason I'm complaining about it now is because when last has third place finished a minute behind the leaders? When last has the midfield, with the same engines as the front runners, lapped THREE seconds off the pace? I agree engine disparity exists, but it's nowhere near as bad as the aero disparity.

And I do agree that the works team will have a PU advantage. They designed the PU around their car philosophy and they get the latest spec, but the difference in specs isn't worth seconds. In 2014 McLaren didn't use the Petronas fuel designed for the Merc PU, so in a way you can't blame Merc.

All I want is a close field. Barcelona showed that the field is more spread out than ever, mostly due to aero.

I like what Brawn said, a team like FI should be able to win a race if they get everything spot on :D

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Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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SameSame wrote:
16 May 2017, 09:45

The reason I'm complaining about it now is because when last has third place finished a minute behind the leaders? When last has the midfield, with the same engines as the front runners, lapped THREE seconds off the pace? I agree engine disparity exists, but it's nowhere near as bad as the aero disparity.

And I do agree that the works team will have a PU advantage. They designed the PU around their car philosophy and they get the latest spec, but the difference in specs isn't worth seconds. In 2014 McLaren didn't use the Petronas fuel designed for the Merc PU, so in a way you can't blame Merc.

All I want is a close field. Barcelona showed that the field is more spread out than ever, mostly due to aero.

I like what Brawn said, a team like FI should be able to win a race if they get everything spot on :D
The gap we saw in Barcelona reminds me the classic races where the difference was huge between top teams and the rest. In this case Mercedes and Ferrari are millions of yeas ahead of the rest. Even Red Bull was almost lapped, that´s worrying.

tranquility2k4
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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I wanted to point out a couple of interesting observations - one or two build on existing points made here and maybe one or two are new.

Firstly, like many here, it was slightly surprising to see Ferrari quickest in S1 and S2 in quali and Merc in S3, this is because there's been a lot of talk (probably wrongly) that due to the wheelbase differences Merc would be more suited to high speed and Ferrari to low speed. Saying this tech experts such as Scarbs have pointed out that this is often a myth, it's a little bit like the myths surrounding front pull rod suspension that were often portrayed inaccurately in the mainstream media, e.g. by Mr Kravitz.

Back to the point - some of you may remember after winter testing Vettel said he knew Ferrari were good but that they had some weaknesses and he specifically pointed out low speed as one of those, and indirectly suggested 'others', i.e. Merc were better there. So from Barca testing it was obvious this could happen come the race in May. I also wonder if this was something to do with why Vettel kept sandbagging at the last corner in testing because their first two sectors would look mighty but maybe he knew S3 was their weakness and thought by sandbagging others wouldn't notice this so much - the actual benefits of doing this are themselves open to debate.

Now onto the race. Something that I find particularly annoying is when the broadcasters and a lot of journalists completely miss a major point and then continue to keep on misportraying it after the event. So we have the VSC period and this is claimed as one of the main saviour's of Hamilton's race, yet to me and I imagine a lot of other viewers, it was obvious during the live coverage that the VSC ended as HAM was entering the pits and so he actually had a very negligible period of time where he'd gain any kind of advantage. This was completely obvious yet the commentators on both Sky F1 and BBC didn't make much of a deal about this at all and then after the event continually stated that he gained a free pit stop. There must be other reasons why he closed the 8 second gap right? Yes.. finally some proper analysis, cue espnf1 race analysis: http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/193 ... ule-change

I quote: "The Virtual Safety Car for Stoffel Vandoorne's stricken McLaren also limited Vettel's soft tyre advantage in the middle stint before Mercedes mixed things up again and switched to the soft just as normal racing resumed on lap 37. Hamilton's out-lap on his fresh soft tyres was crucial in turning the tide against Ferrari and he delivered with truly awesome times in the middle sector (30.792s) and final sector (28.367). To put those figures in perspective, they were on the sort of pace that would have secured a place in Q3 during qualifying on Saturday despite Hamilton's car being laden with half a tank of fuel for the rest of the race.

Unsurprisingly, the two sector times were still the fastest of the race when the chequered flag fell 30 laps later and were nearly over a second quicker than the sector times from Hamilton's official fastest lap two laps from the end. If they'd been combined with a first sector that didn't involve exiting the pit lane, Hamilton's theoretical fastest race lap would have been in the high 1:21s -- a genuinely brilliant lap time for a car with that fuel load and one that would have been quick enough to secure pole position at last year's Spanish Grand Prix.

But the reward for Hamilton's uber-lap was even better than that as it gave him a shot at victory when Vettel made his pit stop on the following lap and rejoined minus the eight second lead he had had before the stops. Immediately after the race and before studying the lap times, Vettel couldn't comprehend how so much of his lead had gone missing so quickly, saying eight seconds had "disappeared" at his second stop. But the truth was that over six of those eight seconds had been down to the sheer pace of Hamilton's out lap versus his in lap and the other two could be accounted for by the advantage Hamilton gained by making his entry to the pit lane under VSC conditions.
"

So there we have it, the VSC was not a big influence and instead it was an insane lap from Hamilton which has largely gone unreported, a real shame, because it's actually a big selling point for this new Formula 1 showing how much drivers can push in a race. It also is just a remarkable lap because if with his best first sector he could do e.g. a 1.21.8, then if he'd have had a S1 at the same speed this may have been in the low 1.21s, then if you take out half a tank of fuel I'm not sure what the time would be (maybe someone can calculate), but this is in a race remember! I imagine his engine was turned up to 'monster mode' so to speak but it goes to show how much on the limit he was as he said after. Hopefully this will receive some more credit come the next race when they do the analysis of the previous one. Even Toto said in interviews that the VSC helped, and didn't really mention Ham's out lap - all pretty strange although it was easy to miss as you can never really judge a lap like that when the first sector is not accurate due to having pitted.

The final point I'd like to make is I really wonder whether Merc intended to do a 2 stop at the time of pitting Ham or whether they planned to do a 3 stop. If Ham had of got out in front of Vet, e.g. if the VSC period lasted for a few more seconds, then it would be quite a risk to put him out for 30 laps on softs, when he'd started to struggle after around 17 laps in his first stint, albeit they were used for quali and these were new I think. At the time my understanding at least was that he would go out and put in 15 quali laps on those softs and could probably have built a gap of around 20 sec considering Vet had Medium tyres and had to go to the end. He would then pit for another set of softs, i.e. 3 stop, and hope to come out in-front for an easy win, or he could have been behind but with new softs vs old mediums and a very high chance to pass. I felt this was the safer strategy and was really surprised his softs lasted 30 laps. In that scenario I don't see how Ferrari could respond because all they could do would be to put VET onto a 3 stop and undercut HAM but surely if HAM had a reasonable gap (which he'd have by the time they would think to switch VET to a 3 stop) then Merc would just pit HAM again sooner than anticipated but to mirror Ferrari's strategy and cover this off. It's a shame that whole scenario didn't happen as the end would have been even more exciting I feel.

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Sieper
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Artur Craft wrote:
16 May 2017, 04:32
Sieper wrote:
14 May 2017, 23:06
Schuttelberg wrote:
14 May 2017, 22:58
I have to say, DRS really ruins some races!
Yes the ones that Vettel gets overtaken using it. When he passes another with a much less powerfull engine aboard even, say in China or so, using it I didn't hear you :D
See, this is the kind of stuff that's not good on the forum. Vettel's overtake on China had almost nothing to due with DRS. He outbraked somebody on the outside after successfully being able to remain close to Ricciardo through T1, 2 and 3.
[/quote]

Why would it not be good, because you don't agree? Although it of course was a lighthearted remark (hence the smiley face) I do feel there is some truth to this. I was talking about the Vettel Verstappen Overtake, Vettel, on fresher tires, with a more powerful engine (or shoudl I say better package overall) and then EVEN with DRS and Verstappen trying to make up for these 3 disadvantages by breaking later then late on the end of the straight. I did not hear Schuttelburg then saying, mmhhhh, is DRS needed in such a scenario?

SameSame
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Vasconia wrote:
16 May 2017, 10:16
SameSame wrote:
16 May 2017, 09:45

The reason I'm complaining about it now is because when last has third place finished a minute behind the leaders? When last has the midfield, with the same engines as the front runners, lapped THREE seconds off the pace? I agree engine disparity exists, but it's nowhere near as bad as the aero disparity.

And I do agree that the works team will have a PU advantage. They designed the PU around their car philosophy and they get the latest spec, but the difference in specs isn't worth seconds. In 2014 McLaren didn't use the Petronas fuel designed for the Merc PU, so in a way you can't blame Merc.

All I want is a close field. Barcelona showed that the field is more spread out than ever, mostly due to aero.

I like what Brawn said, a team like FI should be able to win a race if they get everything spot on :D
The gap we saw in Barcelona reminds me the classic races where the difference was huge between top teams and the rest. In this case Mercedes and Ferrari are millions of yeas ahead of the rest. Even Red Bull was almost lapped, that´s worrying.
Yeah it's crazy :shock: A Merc or Ferrari could have started from the pitlane and would still be guaranteed P4. Yet the Merc or Ferrari who is third through the first corner will most likely remain in that place. There is almost no penalty at most tracks for starting far back. Ferrari aren't probably even too worried about using too many PU components. They will still be on the podium even if they start last :?

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Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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SameSame wrote:
16 May 2017, 11:43

Yeah it's crazy :shock: A Merc or Ferrari could have started from the pitlane and would still be guaranteed P4. Yet the Merc or Ferrari who is third through the first corner will most likely remain in that place. There is almost no penalty at most tracks for starting far back. Ferrari aren't probably even too worried about using too many PU components. They will still be on the podium even if they start last :?
Well not that much because every point they loose against Mercedes will count ,but yes they could have at least a P3/P4 guaranteed in each race.

Being Barcelona a downforce track this result must be depressing for RB, after the so waited updates they are REALLY far.

Yurasyk
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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tranquility2k4 wrote:
16 May 2017, 10:30
the VSC ended as HAM was entering the pits and so he actually had a very negligible period of time where he'd gain any kind of advantage.
...
proper analysis
actually a wrong analysis
VSC ended directly on the end of the 36th lap for Lewis when he already entered on the pitlane.
Plots here
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/05/14/2 ... ap-charts/
show that he lost on the entrance almost nothing to Vettel up to that moment. When on the next lap Vettel lose (relatively to other) more than 5 seconds just on the entrance before the finish line.
The gap Ham to Vet after the Ham pit is 24,4 s, the gap about a lap later just before the Vet pit is about 23s.
If VSC ended just after the Ham pit, he would gain some additional seconds and took the firm lead after the Vet pit.

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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About that VSC - one needs to account for the positioning of both cars/drivers. When Hamilton was passing into the pits whilst the VSC was ending, Vettel was already down the long start/finish straight. This meant that Hamilton was able to run his normal pace into the pits even under the VSC while Vettel was compromized by having to drive that long straight at a much slower pace than under normal conditions. This matters, because a lap later when Vettel pitted under normal race conditions, Hamilton was driving as fast as he could down that straight just as Vettel was coming out of the pits. Whilst this didn't account for a full 8 second advantage swing, it may have been around 4-6 seconds and in conjunction with the outlap on soft tires, Hamilton made up the rest.

The brilliance of it, was that Mercedes gambled on stopping Hamilton at the very last moment to cover off any eventuality that Ferrari would mirror and cover this off, for example, if Hamilton had pitted a lap earlier under the VSC, then Vettel would have come in a lap later to nullify that stop. Mercedes gambled hard, brought Hamilton in just at it was ending which meant that the advantage wasn't as big as it could have been, but close enough to give Hamilton the opportunity to make up the rest with an amazing outlap.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Yurasyk
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Phil wrote:
16 May 2017, 13:54
About that VSC ...
Exactly. Totally agree with Phil.

Yurasyk
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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siskue2005 wrote:
16 May 2017, 07:06
That is no possible both compund to be run by the car for at least one racing lap. SC or VSC period won't count.
Which rule from current sporting regulations is this statement based on?
I can see only

Code: Select all

40.8 Each lap completed whist the VSC procedure is in use during a race will be counted as a race
lap
that means opposite.

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Phil wrote:
16 May 2017, 13:54
About that VSC - one needs to account for the positioning of both cars/drivers. When Hamilton was passing into the pits whilst the VSC was ending, Vettel was already down the long start/finish straight. This meant that Hamilton was able to run his normal pace into the pits even under the VSC while Vettel was compromized by having to drive that long straight at a much slower pace than under normal conditions. This matters, because a lap later when Vettel pitted under normal race conditions, Hamilton was driving as fast as he could down that straight just as Vettel was coming out of the pits. Whilst this didn't account for a full 8 second advantage swing, it may have been around 4-6 seconds and in conjunction with the outlap on soft tires, Hamilton made up the rest.

The brilliance of it, was that Mercedes gambled on stopping Hamilton at the very last moment to cover off any eventuality that Ferrari would mirror and cover this off, for example, if Hamilton had pitted a lap earlier under the VSC, then Vettel would have come in a lap later to nullify that stop. Mercedes gambled hard, brought Hamilton in just at it was ending which meant that the advantage wasn't as big as it could have been, but close enough to give Hamilton the opportunity to make up the rest with an amazing outlap.
It strangely sounds like stock exchange: minimizing risks while keeping decent profits.
#AeroFrodo

giantfan10
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Yurasyk wrote:
16 May 2017, 14:08
Phil wrote:
16 May 2017, 13:54
About that VSC ...
Exactly. Totally agree with Phil.
I second that.
The VSC and Bottas were the 2 deciding factors in this GP and those are the facts.
its laughable looking at some peoples attempts to turn the entire race into some master stroke by Mercedes.
I give mercedes a lot of credit for their timing of the VSC stop to ensure that Vettel was gauranteed to lose time when he stopped...that was clever.
Mercedes knew that if they followed vettels strategy that they would follow him right into second place at the end of the race so they mirrored his strategy and hoped that it would work....with the help of the VSC and Bottas it did work.
good win by mercedes and hamilton.
Kudos to Ferrari for making formula one exciting again

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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BTW: and just to comment on the race. Just like Mercedes dropped the ball in Australia, IMO Ferrari dropped the ball here in Spain. It was theirs to lose, and they did and by more than just circumstance.

IMO, they played right into Mercedes hands on two accounts. First account was the first pit stop: When it seemed as if Mercedes would be pitting Hamilton as evident by the radio message (Lewis, speed up, close the gap) it all pointed to an early pit stop by Mercedes. At that point, as a Hamilton fan, I was screaming at the TV yelling NO, as it was clear he would end up in traffic, which would then likely see a repeat of what we had in Australia. Ferrari jumped at it and pitted Vettel instead. IMO, that was a high risk maneuver, that however didn't have a big impact on the race because Vettel (to my surprise) was able to pass Ricciardo.

Second account was the VSC period. When that VSC happened, I was baffled to not see Ferrari pit Vettel. At that point, Vettel was leading by ~8 seconds. Imagine the following:

VSC out - Vettel/Ferrari pit. Time to pit: 22-8 seconds = 16 seconds (estimated). Result: Vettel 8 seconds behind Hamilton, Vettel on new mediums, Hamilton on used mediums. Given that both cars had quite a similar pace, I'd estimate that Vettel would be slightly quicker, closing that gap to Hamilton. Mercedes would be faced with two possibilities: Either pit again under the VSC which would put them 8 seconds behind Vettel again, but on softs or attempt the one stop strategy and run those worn mediums to the end. Either way, Ferrari would have been at a disadvantage of losing track position by pitting first due to the tire constraint of having to run that medium tire. My bet is that Mercedes would have attempted the 1-stop, staying out on mediums and trying to ride the track position advantage. It then would have come down to a simple equation: is the Ferrari quicker on the slightly fresher mediums? Faster enough to close the gap? Is DRS effective enough to attempt a pass?

In the end, they probably felt that the 8 seconds gap would just be enough to hold on to track position if Mercedes pitted under the VSC and either pit as well under VSC or a lap later. Turned out to be true - just. But I still think the brilliance of how this turned out was that pit stop of Mercedes just as the VSC was ending, leaving Ferrari vulnerable to the max. It was bold and cunning.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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dans79
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Re: 2017 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, 12-14 May

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Phil wrote:
16 May 2017, 16:11
First account was the first pit stop: When it seemed as if Mercedes would be pitting Hamilton as evident by the radio message (Lewis, speed up, close the gap) it all pointed to an early pit stop by Mercedes. At that point, as a Hamilton fan, I was screaming at the TV yelling NO, as it was clear he would end up in traffic, which would then likely see a repeat of what we had in Australia. Ferrari jumped at it and pitted Vettel instead. IMO, that was a high risk maneuver, that however didn't have a big impact on the race because Vettel (to my surprise) was able to pass Ricciardo.
This is the part of the race that I found most interesting. It leads me to believe that while Ferrari might be kinder to their tires than Mercedes, it's not to the extent the media and some fans portray it. To me, Ferrari seemed on edge and not as comfortable/confident as they where in earlier races.
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