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Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 06:17
by Phil
Came across a AMuS article today that i think warrants its own topic. If not, mods, feel free to move things around.
Typing this from mobile at the airport, hope there arent too many errors/typos.
Link:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 22370.html
Translated points:
- 5 teams are using hydraulic suspension systems at the rear
- these are Mercedes, FI, RB, TR, McLaren
- the hydraulic components control the ride height and spring rate and roll
- most systems are hidden in the gearbox structure and invisible to the outside
- indications are that teams are and can manipulate the systems with the temperature of the oil of the hydraulic system
- more heat, higher, cold lower ride height
- Oil is pre heated before QF and Race. Therefore, the characteristics are changed during park ferme
- FIA is clamping down on this since Baku, saying that pre heating is not allowed
- This means drivers have to drive more aggressively when going to the grid to get heat into the oil
- Mercedes is rumored to be using a more sophisticated system as the oil lines go through where the oil of the gearbox and thus can heat it this way
- its impossible to the regulate for now because its completely internal and its a grey zone area
- for 2018 they can only ban hydraulic systems if all vote for it, 2019 this may be disallowed
- rumour has it that Mercedes is using this system to better control their efficiency with the tires and keeping heat in them
I am on the plane now, hope i got most of it and its all accurate. Link above for those that speak and understand German.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 07:33
by Tim.Wright
I think that using the gearbox to heat the suspension oil would technically be classed as active suspension as it's adding energy to the suspension from an outside source.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 08:39
by CBeck113
Tim.Wright wrote: ↑12 Jul 2017, 07:33
I think that using the gearbox to heat the suspension oil would technically be classed as active suspension as it's adding energy to the suspension from an outside source.
I doubt that because the "outside source" must be there, more like driving faster adds more wind to the wings to create more downforce. This is actually a very clever solution, but it must be a b*tch to get it right, since the temperature is then only controlled by the car speed and air temperature.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 09:21
by GPR-A duplicate2
Tim.Wright wrote: ↑12 Jul 2017, 07:33
I think that using the gearbox to heat the suspension oil would technically be classed as active suspension as it's adding energy to the suspension from an outside source.
If I understand correctly, the definition of "Active" is when an external action is required, more significantly, any dedicated device OR a driver effort to actuate, is classified as "Active". Other than that, any "Passive" configurations, where no direct intervention from the driver have been allowed. Though FRIC was a "Passive" system, it was banned under the light that, the suspension can only perform load bearing act AND NOT provide aerodynamic advantage. Can the FIA do something similar, not sure.
We can also recall the Double DRS that was introduced on W03 in 2012, which was only banned in consultation with Mercedes, as there was no grounds to ban it. It was a "Passive" DRS system.
The gulf of performance between the top teams and mid-field teams has widened because FIA keeps banning simple systems. Top teams can afford to spend millions to recover those extra few tenths, which the mid-field teams cannot.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 09:29
by CriXus
I think the answer to all those shenanigans is FIA standardized active suspension with every team developing its software.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 10:07
by Tim.Wright
Active and passive are very well defined, at least in the general engineering world. Active is any external energy being added to the system from outside - period. In the FIA rules there is an explicit exception to vertical force inputs from the road.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 10:23
by LookBackTime
Tim.Wright wrote: ↑12 Jul 2017, 07:33
I think that using the gearbox to heat the suspension oil would technically be classed as active suspension as it's adding energy to the suspension from an outside source.
I agree with you thoughts!
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 10:28
by Pany
Interesting. Surely suspensions are the key for extra performances. Look at redbull last year and/or in last 2 races This explains clearly differences between force india and williams for example. Ferrari I think has also some trick there, maybe less sofisticated. In my opinion the aero mercedes is developing race by race at highest level is only smog for eyes, but is in their super damper and hydraulic systems the winning secret in las 2 years, as it was for redbull in 2016. That is why Ferrari and others are still behind in qualifying. Hope FIA will do something soon in order to bring back more competition for driver title. For the benefit of the whole F1 circus. The point is the difficulty to control hydraulics with more clever rules.
Phil wrote: ↑12 Jul 2017, 06:17
Came across a AMuS article today that i think warrants its own topic. If not, mods, feel free to move things around.
Typing this from mobile at the airport, hope there arent too many errors/typos.
Link:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 22370.html
Translated points:
- 5 teams are using hydraulic suspension systems at the rear
- these are Mercedes, FI, RB, TR, McLaren
- the hydraulic components control the ride height and spring rate and roll
- most systems are hidden in the gearbox structure and invisible to the outside
- indications are that teams are and can manipulate the systems with the temperature of the oil of the hydraulic system
- more heat, higher, cold lower ride height
- Oil is pre heated before QF and Race. Therefore, the characteristics are changed during park ferme
- FIA is clamping down on this since Baku, saying that pre heating is not allowed
- This means drivers have to drive more aggressively when going to the grid to get heat into the oil
- Mercedes is rumored to be using a more sophisticated system as the oil lines go through where the oil of the gearbox and thus can heat it this way
- its impossible to the regulate for now because its completely internal and its a grey zone area
- for 2018 they can only ban hydraulic systems if all vote for it, 2019 this may be disallowed
- rumour has it that Mercedes is using this system to better control their efficiency with the tires and keeping heat in them
I am on the plane now, hope i got most of it and its all accurate. Link above for those that speak and understand German.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 10:30
by LookBackTime
We can see an "underwater storm" where teams are using "secret" tech. information to hit the adversary teams.
Ferrari hit hard last fall Mercedes and R.B. with suspension saga - part I.
Mercedes hit back (few weeks ago) with secondary oil tank used by Ferrari to burn oil in the combustion chamber.
Now is Ferrari turn! We have suspension saga - part II.
Let's see what will happen!
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 10:43
by matt21
I personally would place the suspension elements near the waste gate exhaust.
Then I can influence the temperature any time I like within a short time due to the high difference between the hydraulics and the exhaust.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 16:20
by giantfan10
So Amus concludes that we now know how mercedes got a handle on their tire woes.....the kicker to this is that the FIA says that what mercedes is doing putting the actuators close to the gearbox is not illegal at this time ... preheating the hydraulic fluid while under parc ferme rules is illegal.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 18:44
by hardingfv32
So what are the technical aspects of these 'temperature' controlled suspension systems?
I do not see the need for such a system. All the metrics mentioned are free to be set before the car is on the track. Are there any rules the restrict the areas of adjustment mentioned in the article if made in the paddock?
It would be my opinion that to be of any value the adjustments have to be made while the car is on track.
Possibly a response to changing fuel loads or tire compound being used. In this case the temperature has to be adjustable while on track.
Is there anything preventing the suspension oil from being circulated and/or controlling this circulation? The circulation could be routed through a heat source.
Brian
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 12 Jul 2017, 23:54
by giantfan10
hardingfv32 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2017, 18:44
So what are the technical aspects of these 'temperature' controlled suspension systems?
I do not see the need for such a system. All the metrics mentioned are free to be set before the car is on the track. Are there any rules the restrict the areas of adjustment mentioned in the article if made in the paddock?
It would be my opinion that to be of any value the adjustments have to be made while the car is on track.
Possibly a response to changing fuel loads or tire compound being used. In this case the temperature has to be adjustable while on track.
Is there anything preventing the suspension oil from being circulated and/or controlling this circulation? The circulation could be routed through a heat source.
Brian
Temperature changes the viscosity of hydraulic fluid which then opens the door for teams to manipulate ride height and bla bla bla
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 13 Jul 2017, 00:30
by roon
Maybe this is what the floor bulges are. Wastegate controlled exhaust-gas/suspension-fluid heat exchangers. The bulges do seem to lie directly to either side of the engine, outboard of the headers.
Re: Hydraulic Suspension tricks
Posted: 13 Jul 2017, 12:40
by SiLo
The FIA even came out and said that teams could use exhausts as a form of heating if they wanted. What Mercedes is doing is just a clever interpretation of the rules, but is perfectly legal and I can't see them adding rules in to stop it. If you leave it open to air it could be deemed as offering a cooling effect on the oil if that was required for some reason.
Teams will just converge on this idea and that will be the end of it.