Tesla Roadster

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Andres125sx
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Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Tesla Roadster

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CBeck113 wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:33 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:52 am
Shrieker wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:56 pm


Would the electric charge be a problem if you're carrying a lot of people ? Something goes wrong, you fry scores of people instead of just one in a truck. Maybe that's one of the reasons truck arrives first. Or maybe the bus wouldn't be as advantageous as the truck in economic terms, so logically they went with the truck first ?
I´d say safety is far from a concern, but mileage may be.

Buses are running all day long without significant stops to recharge, while trucks carry some load and then take a rest wich can be used for recharging, so even when they don´t work for US coast to coast trips yet, for any other trip within its reasonable range they´re fine
The semi will also be running in a near steady state, whereas the bus will be in stop-and-go conditions, which requires more power and therefore causes more wear on the battery. If Tesla has a new battery technology, then it may be sensitive to loading cycles, and the frequent acceleration and breaking (=charging cycle) could do more harm than good.
The bus is constantly in stop and go conditions, but that´s not different to any other city car, and actually that´s the scenario where EVs shine when compared to ICEs even today when battery technology is not good enough yet. EVs don´t waste energy when stopped, and electric motors huge torque is much better to start moving from still.

I agree about the semi tough, they run in a near steady state, so I guess that´s improving mileage significantly

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Andres125sx
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Re: Tesla Roadster

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:57 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:31 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:20 pm
'electric energy costs are half those of diesel'

how much higher are the environmental costs ?
(given the coal and nuclear sources of electricity)
not higher at all, maybe in India, but I´d say India is not the first target for EV manufacturers

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:20 pm
how much higher are the social costs ?
(if the electricity is untaxed but the diesel is taxed)
Social costs higher? No way.

Diesels are taxed basically because they´re throwing poison to the atmosphere, CO2 is far from the only problem with ICEs. Taxes are only trying to compensate the health problems they cause :wink:

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:20 pm
the liberal toshfest that is our BBC has just told us this vehicle has zero emissions
The zero emissions propaganda is an invention of the BBC? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:20 pm
has Mr Tesla heard of the 50% efficient heat dilution gasoline engines as used in F1 ?
they don't even need a catalyst
True, no catalyst, they only need 100kg of fuel to cover 300km :mrgreen:
That's the equivalent of 550kwh energy store in a package weighing 835kg, Tesla can't even get 200kwh battery pack to weigh under 830kg, let alone the rest of the drivetrain, of course F1 vs mass produced novelty item, can't compare the 2.
Exactly, that´s the point, it´s a moot comparison.

Also, if Tesla, Panasonic, or whatever brand is manufacturing their batteries could store that energy in that mass, ICE would not exist, not even for competition :wink:

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Tesla Roadster

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[quote=Andres125sx]
....EVs don´t waste energy when stopped, and electric motors huge torque is much better to start moving from still[/quote]

an EV motor is torque-limited (fixed maximum torque) up to some rpm, thereafter power-limited (max torque falls with rpm)
it's only 'better' at starting in the sense of needing less gears and clutching and in effect it can stall
(the mythical 'huge torque' was 19th century technology found in ICE starter motors and eg in UK milk delivery vehicles)

the E motor runs from a variable frequency variable voltage drive conversion of fixed voltage nil frequency battery source
that drive will be consuming energy (quiescent power) when/if the motor is stopped when the vehicle is stopped eg in traffic

and the battery is constantly losing energy internally
when I use my ICE car after 10 days the stored energy loss is maybe 0.00001%
with a battery the stored energy loss over this time is 1%, 3%, even 10%, 30% etc ? (90% for my backup toothbrush or shaver)
internal loss means battery life ie X number of charge/discharge cycles or 3X number of partial cycles is somewhat false
as internal losses increase with age regardless of cycle numbers the occasional driver is not well served by the EV

btw
once when doing outline designs for special 40-80 axis servo devices I identified a Seidel drive as best suited due to price
of linear not PWM etc type originally for airborne radar scanning ? its quiescent power was perhaps 30% of rated power
the potential Middle Eastern client could have had 80 of these in his work station running 12 hours/day
a junior colleague once planned a 3 way active crossover for his audio amps - this would have given a QP of over 50%
(then sought a Ferrari V6 for his motorcycle, I pointed him to TWR's bins of wrecked V12 Jaguar blocks for home V6-ing)

re the Tesla truck and its intended robot operation .....
such vehicles could largely run on dedicated 'truck tracks' of minimal cost road type construction ie 2 strips of concrete 6' apart
99% of the road maintenance cost (UK) and some of their construction cost is due to trucks 'axle weight' contact loads
we could have 'truck trains' running on tracks costing maybe 5% of the cost of rail tracks (UK rail being already saturated)

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DiogoBrand
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Location: Brazil

Re: Tesla Roadster

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The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?

bill shoe
bill shoe
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Re: Tesla Roadster

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Some quick nerd-numbers on the Telsa roadster-

0-60 mph in 1.9 seconds
Average accel is 1.44 G
Assuming 5000 lb car, delivered power at 60 mph is 1155 hp

1.4-mile in 8.9 seconds
Average accel is 1.04 G
Reasonable guess for target profile is launch at 1.44 G, finishing at 0.60 G and 220 mph. Max delivered power would be around 1800 hp.

If an IC car tried to hit the same targets, would it be possible? I think easily. The key enabler is saying “Yes I will accept a 5000 lb car”. Cars like the Dubai Devil (I think there’s a thread on this site somewhere) are basically doing the same thing as the Tesla Roadster but with traditional IC power.

Cars like the Adrian Newey Aston-Martin, or even something as simple as a new Miata, assume that straight-line performance is part of bigger-picture performance. Tesla has rushed into the husky-size section of the automotive store, emerged with straight-line accel numbers, and announced that a beat-down has occurred on IC cars. OK.

flmkane
flmkane
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Re: Tesla Roadster

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:08 pm
The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?
Politics and PR

roon
roon
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Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Tesla Roadster

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:11 pm
ie 2 strips of concrete 6' apart
Image


The Semi rear suspension looks to have two solid axles, four swingarms, and four air bags. No surprises there. The drive motors appear parallel to the axles, for efficiency, and unsprung. If this is the case, this is the closest to in-wheel motors for a production vehicle I've seen. When guaranteeing million-mile drivetrain performance, would you not want to isolate the motors from shock via driveshafts and chassis-side mounting?

Image

Image



flmkane wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:01 pm
DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:08 pm
The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?
Politics and PR
Urban/local emissions, noise, consumer interest, free enterprise permitting a company to pursue what it wants to pursue.

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DiogoBrand
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Location: Brazil

Re: Tesla Roadster

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flmkane wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:01 pm
DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:08 pm
The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?
Politics and PR
My thoughts exactly.

hurril
hurril
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Tesla Roadster

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:13 pm
flmkane wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:01 pm
DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:08 pm
The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?
Politics and PR
My thoughts exactly.
If it were that simple, why aren't they all doing it?

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henry
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Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Tesla Roadster

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:13 pm
flmkane wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:01 pm
DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:08 pm
The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?
Politics and PR
My thoughts exactly.
The country with the highest electric vehicle sales is China. Do you think this is happening because of “Politics and PR”? Or do you think, maybe, they have some problems to solve?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Edax
Edax
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Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:47 pm

Re: Tesla Roadster

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:08 pm
The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?
To get a technologically advanced complex product to market you need early adopters, who will accept an immature technology at a high price. These will help you to get production started, work out the kinks, get the infrastructure in place and drive down costs. That is one way you can gain mass market,

What Tesla absolutely nailed is to identify these early adopters. Whereas most EV’s tried to appeal to the environmentally contious, Tesla appealed to the luxury market, Yuppies, Dinky’s, Banks and insurers trying to boost the appeal of their fleet. They skipped the environmental stuff, and went for luxury, and gadgery. I mean if your concern is for the environment cramming a car full of LCD’s is not exactly the way to go.

They went after the money, and so far it works out. But I absolutely believe the mass market is there. For me personally the technology is getting close to the tipping point. My solar panels are producing enough excess energy as it is, my driving habits allow for EV. A bit lower in price and a bit more range and reliability and they are there.

How much I like my 2l turbo, I hate splashing down 100 euros every time I visit the pump. Simple math really.

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DiogoBrand
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Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 6:02 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Tesla Roadster

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Edax wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:16 am
DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:08 pm
The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?
To get a technologically advanced complex product to market you need early adopters, who will accept an immature technology at a high price. These will help you to get production started, work out the kinks, get the infrastructure in place and drive down costs. That is one way you can gain mass market,

What Tesla absolutely nailed is to identify these early adopters. Whereas most EV’s tried to appeal to the environmentally contious, Tesla appealed to the luxury market, Yuppies, Dinky’s, Banks and insurers trying to boost the appeal of their fleet. They skipped the environmental stuff, and went for luxury, and gadgery. I mean if your concern is for the environment cramming a car full of LCD’s is not exactly the way to go.

They went after the money, and so far it works out. But I absolutely believe the mass market is there. For me personally the technology is getting close to the tipping point. My solar panels are producing enough excess energy as it is, my driving habits allow for EV. A bit lower in price and a bit more range and reliability and they are there.

How much I like my 2l turbo, I hate splashing down 100 euros every time I visit the pump. Simple math really.
Very good point. In the past, all electric vehicles were a variation of a G-Wiz: A very small and ugly car with all appeal to tree hugging lunatics, while Tesla showed us that an electric vehicle can be as good as a fossil fueled car, it doesn't need to be a tiny shitbox.
I just wonder: "Filling up" a battery is way cheaper than filling a gasoline tank, but how high are the costs of replacing the batteries every few years in comparison to regular ICE maintenance? I assume they're lower, but how much?

santos
santos
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Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:48 pm

Re: Tesla Roadster

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:26 pm

Very good point. In the past, all electric vehicles were a variation of a G-Wiz: A very small and ugly car with all appeal to tree hugging lunatics, while Tesla showed us that an electric vehicle can be as good as a fossil fueled car, it doesn't need to be a tiny shitbox.
I just wonder: "Filling up" a battery is way cheaper than filling a gasoline tank, but how high are the costs of replacing the batteries every few years in comparison to regular ICE maintenance? I assume they're lower, but how much?
You mean, replace the batery??? Tesla gives a 8 years waranty, after that it is very expensive. The 85kWh battery was about 20.000$00USD. Besides brake pads, a Tesla also changes the oil from differencial every 60k miles.

Edax
Edax
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Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:47 pm

Re: Tesla Roadster

Post

DiogoBrand wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:26 pm
Edax wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:16 am
DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:08 pm
The thing I don't get is:
Why spend so much to develop these cars, why spend so much to buy them, when cars make up for just around 20% of man-made carbon emissions?
To get a technologically advanced complex product to market you need early adopters, who will accept an immature technology at a high price. These will help you to get production started, work out the kinks, get the infrastructure in place and drive down costs. That is one way you can gain mass market,

What Tesla absolutely nailed is to identify these early adopters. Whereas most EV’s tried to appeal to the environmentally contious, Tesla appealed to the luxury market, Yuppies, Dinky’s, Banks and insurers trying to boost the appeal of their fleet. They skipped the environmental stuff, and went for luxury, and gadgery. I mean if your concern is for the environment cramming a car full of LCD’s is not exactly the way to go.

They went after the money, and so far it works out. But I absolutely believe the mass market is there. For me personally the technology is getting close to the tipping point. My solar panels are producing enough excess energy as it is, my driving habits allow for EV. A bit lower in price and a bit more range and reliability and they are there.

How much I like my 2l turbo, I hate splashing down 100 euros every time I visit the pump. Simple math really.
Very good point. In the past, all electric vehicles were a variation of a G-Wiz: A very small and ugly car with all appeal to tree hugging lunatics, while Tesla showed us that an electric vehicle can be as good as a fossil fueled car, it doesn't need to be a tiny shitbox.
I just wonder: "Filling up" a battery is way cheaper than filling a gasoline tank, but how high are the costs of replacing the batteries every few years in comparison to regular ICE maintenance? I assume they're lower, but how much?
I once asked the driver of an electric taxi. The number he gave me that it needs replaced once per 200k kilometers at a cost of 10keuro. So that works out at 1 euro/ 20 km.

If I compare that to my car then it is more expensive, even if you factor in a belt/clutch change. On the other hand the high fuel prices 1.5Eur/l (7.5 $/gallon) give a lot of room to work with.

So I guess where you live is a big factor in how much sense EV’s make.

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DiogoBrand
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Location: Brazil

Re: Tesla Roadster

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So if you take into account that an ICE needs new air filters, oil changes, spark plugs, sometimes timing belts, not to mention the fuel, then 10 000 Euros after 200 000 km seems fair enough. Some ICEs won't even last that long without very expensive maintenance or repairs, especially now with all the turbos and direct injection gismos that help increase costs.

As far as range goes, that will always be a complaint in EVs, since ICEs have pretty much infinite range, but to me that's like those people that never went off road in their lives, but won't buy anything that's not 4x4: You buy it because you think you perhaps may need it once in your life, and probably never will.

So from my POV: As environmentally friendly, EVs are just BS. As a way to have a good car with lower running costs, once they become more mainstream, they'll be a very nice option.