NL_Fer wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:20 pm
Honda and the most other Japanese brands lost a lot or market in the 00’s. They didn’t offer small diesels at the time, like an aluminium 1.5 or 1.6 which ran at 5l/100km.
And the 00 civic was pretty boring. They fixed that design in 05, but they offered powerless 1.4 and 1.6 gasoline engines, a noisy 2.2 diesel and the IMA was a sedan only. Than in the 10’s the European brands came turbo-gasoline and DCT boxes. And even more competition like the A-Class and A3.
Nail on the head regarding the EU policies designed to push passenger car diesels, where domestic European brands were the strongest.
As for turbos and DCT, I still reckon my '10 Civic Type R (the UK hatch not the hardcore Japanese sedan) is much more fun to drive than a '10 Golf GTI DSG. I just took the long way home through the mountains tonight and it was a joy (mine does have a few little tweaks like lighter wheels to aid the sluggish acceleration, and wheels which are wider on the front to reduce the understeer which they are known for, I also find putting higher tyre pressures in the rear helps the car feel more pointy too )
At least the Civic comes with a limited slip differential as standard (albeit only in late '09 cars onward), and a proper lightweight single mass flywheel (only 5.1kg on the OEM flywheel!) for snappy engine response, unlike the lazy dual-mass boat anchor found in EA113 and EA888s with manual transmissions. More components are identical between the UK and Japan car than people realise (e.g., clutch, flywheel, LSD, shifter box, the entire gearbox, the entire cylinder head apart from the camshafts, the engine short blocks are the same apart from the oil pump and compression ratio of the pistons, the seats are substantially similar etc). Having had a Integra Type R DC5, I think the lack of sound insulation and harder suspension of the Japanese Civic Type R sedan would be too much for me. Whereas the UK car is a better blend between comfort and fun, yet without being as bland as a GTI.
It's about quality not quantity, I just don't like turbocharged four cylinder engines and/or having that extra variable of boost pressure in addition to throttle position and rpm. The modern turbocharged engines that merely simulate a larger NA, but a larger NA which happens to sound and feel like a blender, are effective yet dull and therefore not very fun IMHO. E.g., my Renault Megane 2.0 turbo was remapped to 285 PS and "many torques" but it was still
not very fun. The engine was like a blender before, and it was like a slightly quicker blender after being remapped!
They are even less fun than older turbo fours IMO -- e.g., at least my old classic Impreza WRX with a similar 280 PS was exciting
in how the boost came in so suddenly and aggressively after the considerable turbo lag! I still preferred the Honda VTEC to that, but at least it was more exciting than the modern twin-scroll stuff.
I know when Honda were designing the 2015 Civic Type R, they deliberately used a single scroll turbo to keep some turbo lag and some sense of the engine being turbocharged. So the modern Civic Type R still has some turbo lag and a higher rpm boost threshold than most vehicles but
then it also still pulls hard all the way to the 7000rpm redline, unlike say a (cough) Focus ST that falls flat on its face 1000rpm before the redline...
The Focus ST is also available in a diesel, as is the Golf GTD, which I guess tells you a lot about the European auto market and how it still favours diesels to this day somewhat, even despite dieselgate, Euro 7 and WLTP. Yet 30 years ago, both the European and Japanese auto markets had the same, low, percentage of diesel passenger cars, only 10%.
NL_Fer wrote: ↑
Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:20 pm
And the 00 civic was pretty boring.
Interestingly, the '00-'05 EP3 Civic Type R was a big hit for Honda in Europe. Having had the virtually identical DC5 Integra Type R, that car has some serious problems which seem to be often overlooked. The front and rear suspension geometry is terrible!
That generation was a big departure from the double-wishbone-equipped EK Civic and used suspension lifted from the Honda Stream minivan. The 'flaws' with that suspension design didn't matter so much on a Stream, but were problematic for Civic Type Rs and Integra Type Rs which would be driven harder and have somewhat more powerful engines (especially after modification, e.g., people dropping in 2.4L blocks from Honda Accords!).
Not only does the steering geometry (lack of caster & very long steering arms that are attached to the centre of the rack
) cause a lot of bumpsteer & torque steer, the rear suspension severely lacks shock absorber stroke too. These were all fixed in the next generation of car (which had a conventional steering rack and twice as much steering caster angle, and long travel rear shock absorbers outboard of the boot cargo area), even if the FN2 does have a rear beam and understeer badly in stock form instead. It is still a much more confidence inspiring and predictable car than the DC5 IMHO.
ispano6 wrote: ↑
Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:10 am
Take for example the current China market Integra - it's quite the looker and is much better styled than the current Civic.
It looks exactly the same apart from having a slightly nicer grille and slightly more Honda-ish taillights?
I do agree it's an improvement, but it's pretty minor, and I believe the American Jetta-esque Civic was a deliberate response to requests for the Civic to have more mature, reserved, VW-like styling.