General Honda F1 Topic

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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restless wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:15 pm
etusch wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:03 am
I think it is more than pricing. Maybe honda style don't fit with european market, maybe they don't work good enough to sell more.
Honda was doing fine in Europe 20-25y ago.
25 years ago was before the European Union diesel car initiative for reducing CO2 emissions, that initiative came in about 20-25 years ago.

...and what brands are strong in passenger car diesels? All the European domestic brands: the French especially, the Germans, the Swedes etc. Coincidence... or not? :wink:

Toyota and Honda instead pursued a petrol hybrid approach to reducing CO2 emissions. Of course, Honda has not been nearly as successful as Toyota with that! You can't go out in Australia without encountering Priuses and Camry Hybrid everywhere (or a senior in a spiffy brand new Yaris Cross Hybrid or a family man or family woman in a RAV4 Hybrid), whereas an Insight or Civic Hybrid is a rare sight and a questionable used car proposition with the Honda hybrids having a poor historical reputation compared to the Toyotas.

Europe ... has decoupled itself for 20 years by focusing research capacity towards the diesel powertrain. The resulting technology shift has led to some 45 million extra diesel cars in Europe.

In the early 1990s, the ratio of diesel cars in both Europe and Japan did not differ much and accounted to about 10% of the fleet (Figure 1). It further increased until the mid of the decade. Since then, the development completely diverged. Japan began to phase out diesel cars while at the same time EU diesel car registrations began to take off and grew steadily.

...By comparing the European diesel strategy to the Japanese petrol-hybrid avenue, it becomes clear that a different road would have both more effectively reduced CO2 emissions and pollutants.
Critical evaluation of the European diesel car boom - global comparison, environmental effects and various national strategies
Cames M & Helmers E, 2013, Environmental Sciences Europe, Vol. 25 No. 15.

I.e., the authors of that paper argue that incentivising petrol hybrids (ala the Californian auto market) would have been a more successful policy to reduce CO2 emissions and improve urban air pollution in Europe than incentivising passenger car diesels.

While Honda did have at least two diesel engines, the 2.2 CTDi and the 1.6 iDTEC, neither are viewed that fondly in Honda enthusiast circles compared to staples like the K series and J series petrol engines (of course, these diesel engines weren't even sold at all in North America IIRC).

Besides Toyota group, who are the number one auto maker by volume nearly everywhere else, are only the 5th best selling auto maker in Europe which tells you a lot about how different the European auto market is than elsewhere.
Last edited by JordanMugen on Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:20 pm
Honda and the most other Japanese brands lost a lot or market in the 00’s. They didn’t offer small diesels at the time, like an aluminium 1.5 or 1.6 which ran at 5l/100km. And the 00 civic was pretty boring. They fixed that design in 05, but they offered powerless 1.4 and 1.6 gasoline engines, a noisy 2.2 diesel and the IMA was a sedan only. Than in the 10’s the European brands came turbo-gasoline and DCT boxes. And even more competition like the A-Class and A3.
Nail on the head regarding the EU policies designed to push passenger car diesels, where domestic European brands were the strongest.

As for turbos and DCT, I still reckon my '10 Civic Type R (the UK hatch not the hardcore Japanese sedan) is much more fun to drive than a '10 Golf GTI DSG. I just took the long way home through the mountains tonight and it was a joy (mine does have a few little tweaks like lighter wheels to aid the sluggish acceleration, and wheels which are wider on the front to reduce the understeer which they are known for, I also find putting higher tyre pressures in the rear helps the car feel more pointy too :)). 8)

At least the Civic comes with a limited slip differential as standard (albeit only in late '09 cars onward), and a proper lightweight single mass flywheel (only 5.1kg on the OEM flywheel!) for snappy engine response, unlike the lazy dual-mass boat anchor found in EA113 and EA888s with manual transmissions. More components are identical between the UK and Japan car than people realise (e.g., clutch, flywheel, LSD, shifter box, the entire gearbox, the entire cylinder head apart from the camshafts, the engine short blocks are the same apart from the oil pump and compression ratio of the pistons, the seats are substantially similar etc). Having had a Integra Type R DC5, I think the lack of sound insulation and harder suspension of the Japanese Civic Type R sedan would be too much for me. Whereas the UK car is a better blend between comfort and fun, yet without being as bland as a GTI.

It's about quality not quantity, I just don't like turbocharged four cylinder engines and/or having that extra variable of boost pressure in addition to throttle position and rpm. The modern turbocharged engines that merely simulate a larger NA, but a larger NA which happens to sound and feel like a blender, are effective yet dull and therefore not very fun IMHO. E.g., my Renault Megane 2.0 turbo was remapped to 285 PS and "many torques" but it was still not very fun. The engine was like a blender before, and it was like a slightly quicker blender after being remapped! :|

They are even less fun than older turbo fours IMO -- e.g., at least my old classic Impreza WRX with a similar 280 PS was exciting in how the boost came in so suddenly and aggressively after the considerable turbo lag! I still preferred the Honda VTEC to that, but at least it was more exciting than the modern twin-scroll stuff.

I know when Honda were designing the 2015 Civic Type R, they deliberately used a single scroll turbo to keep some turbo lag and some sense of the engine being turbocharged. So the modern Civic Type R still has some turbo lag and a higher rpm boost threshold than most vehicles but then it also still pulls hard all the way to the 7000rpm redline, unlike say a (cough) Focus ST that falls flat on its face 1000rpm before the redline...

The Focus ST is also available in a diesel, as is the Golf GTD, which I guess tells you a lot about the European auto market and how it still favours diesels to this day somewhat, even despite dieselgate, Euro 7 and WLTP. Yet 30 years ago, both the European and Japanese auto markets had the same, low, percentage of diesel passenger cars, only 10%.

NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:20 pm
And the 00 civic was pretty boring.
Interestingly, the '00-'05 EP3 Civic Type R was a big hit for Honda in Europe. Having had the virtually identical DC5 Integra Type R, that car has some serious problems which seem to be often overlooked. The front and rear suspension geometry is terrible!

That generation was a big departure from the double-wishbone-equipped EK Civic and used suspension lifted from the Honda Stream minivan. The 'flaws' with that suspension design didn't matter so much on a Stream, but were problematic for Civic Type Rs and Integra Type Rs which would be driven harder and have somewhat more powerful engines (especially after modification, e.g., people dropping in 2.4L blocks from Honda Accords!). :)

Not only does the steering geometry (lack of caster & very long steering arms that are attached to the centre of the rack) cause a lot of bumpsteer & torque steer, the rear suspension severely lacks shock absorber stroke too. These were all fixed in the next generation of car (which had a conventional steering rack and twice as much steering caster angle, and long travel rear shock absorbers outboard of the boot cargo area), even if the FN2 does have a rear beam and understeer badly in stock form instead. It is still a much more confidence inspiring and predictable car than the DC5 IMHO.

ispano6 wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:10 am
Take for example the current China market Integra - it's quite the looker and is much better styled than the current Civic.
It looks exactly the same apart from having a slightly nicer grille and slightly more Honda-ish taillights? :P I do agree it's an improvement, but it's pretty minor, and I believe the American Jetta-esque Civic was a deliberate response to requests for the Civic to have more mature, reserved, VW-like styling.
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:10 am
VW is a company who would do something long term, takes their time and will review all the options. This is something I found a bit meh from Honda, their relationship status with F1 would be "complicated". This last attempt was their third of fourth comeback?
The forth comeback. Even in Motorcycle Grand Prix racing, Honda's entry has not been continuous.

What could have been if Honda just copied the Cosworth DFV instead of trying to design a radical air-cooled V8? Likewise more wins could have been scored by re-entering motorcycle racing in the first place with a two-stroke instead of an oval piston 4-stroke. But if not for radical, crazy ideas it would not be Honda. :)

Did we ever find out if the RA615H actually had a radical axial-type compressor after all? :?:

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Wouter
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The Power of Honda!

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AMG.Tzan
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Wouter wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am
This means then, no Honda logos tomorrow on the Red Bull!

I'm still confused, Honda will continue making the engines in Japan but won't have their name on the cars?? This doesn't make any sense at all...
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

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jagunx51 wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:48 am
No, Honda Says It Hasn’t Agreed to New Red Bull F1 Engine Deal Past 2022

Reports last week claimed a deal was made through 2025, though Honda tells us that's not the case.

BY HAZEL SOUTHWELL

JANUARY 31, 2022
https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/44 ... -past-2022

When that quote came out, some outlets reported it as gospel that what Marko said was happening. The Drive reached out to both Red Bull and Honda to check in on the story, though, which seems far from set in stone.

For its part, Red Bull downplayed the story and told me that nothing was agreed despite Marko's comments. Honda got back to me to confirm that "Honda will support Red Bull Powertrains in building the 2022 PU and also provide trackside and race operation support from HRC throughout the 2022 season. And we received a request from Red Bull to extend the period, however we have not yet decided at the moment."
.
Well, that article wasn't correct.
This IG says:

Ready for the next chapter? (that is not only one year, a chapter)

Good luck @redbullracing and @alphataurif1!

#PoweredByHonda #F1 #Honda

The Power of Honda!

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HPD
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:26 pm
This means then, no Honda logos tomorrow on the Red Bull!

I'm still confused, Honda will continue making the engines in Japan but won't have their name on the cars?? This doesn't make any sense at all...
Apparently it will not have any Honda markings.
It was already seen on the helmets, there is no longer any sign of Honda.
sad

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Wouter
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HPD wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:13 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:26 pm
This means then, no Honda logos tomorrow on the Red Bull!

I'm still confused, Honda will continue making the engines in Japan but won't have their name on the cars?? This doesn't make any sense at all...
Apparently it will not have any Honda markings.
It was already seen on the helmets, there is no longer any sign of Honda.
sad
.
I don't know @HPD. On the IG from Honda that I posted:

"Good luck @redbullracing and @alphataurif1!

#PoweredByHonda #F1 #Honda"

Maybe there will, because it says "PowerdByHonda #F1". I hope so.
The Power of Honda!

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HPD
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Wouter wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:25 pm

Maybe there will, because it says "PowerdByHonda #F1". I hope so.
HRC
Honda Racing

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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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AMG.Tzan wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:26 pm
Wouter wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:06 am
This means then, no Honda logos tomorrow on the Red Bull!
These seem to be 2022 RBR uniforms with the red o in the Mobil logo, so why do they say Honda and not HRC... Weird. I thought Honda didn't want their brand associated with F1 racing. :?:

Does it open the door for Honda to return on the entry list as the engine supplier or on the car branding or...? :wtf:

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Sieper
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in the ice run demo there was a honda logo on the nose and on the inside of the headrest it said "honda". Perhaps small references to Honda like this will remain?
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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the red bull 'bull' art piece is really cool

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JordanMugen
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Sieper wrote:
Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:14 am
in the ice run demo there was a honda logo on the nose and on the inside of the headrest it said "honda". Perhaps small references to Honda like this will remain?
Interesting, that was a like a half-2021 livery & half-2022 livery demo car (i.e., the Red Bull rear wing but otherwise the 2021 livery). Max was in a 2021 race suit though, so maybe it is just older stuff carried over.

Perhaps Red Bull are saving the announcement of the engine name changing back to Honda for the car launch (the actual car)? :?: Or I may be reading too much into it. :lol:

Can Red Bull Powertrains still be classed by the FIA as a new power unit supplier for 2026 if the Red Bull XY##### power unit has competed for 2022-2025 in the back of Red Bulls and AlphaTauri (even if everyone knows unofficially that the Red Bull XY##### power unit is a rebadged Honda RA622H)?