McLaren MCL33

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M840TR
M840TR
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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charliesmithhd wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:08 pm
M840TR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:01 pm
The difference between low and high drag.

https://i.imgur.com/vruLL4T.jpg
Is that an old Mclaren pic? Looks like old sidepod bargeboards
It's from China. The sidepods are missing the vertical element that was introduced in Spain but bargeboards have mostly remained the same.

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charliesmithhd
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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M840TR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:01 pm
The difference between low and high drag.

https://i.imgur.com/vruLL4T.jpg
Hope that mclaren improve this area a lot next season, it looks very simple compared to the Ferrari

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Jackles-UK
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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M840TR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:01 pm
The difference between low and high drag.

https://i.imgur.com/vruLL4T.jpg
Do we know the Ferrari as a particularly low drag chassis? It’s fast, sure, but that’s surely more to do with the best PU & deployment on the grid rather than the chassis.

Wouldn’t it make sense that the more elements and places the air is deflected/forced into vortices, the higher the drag will be? Maybe that is why the Mclaren is is more simple in this area (to avoid any further drag even at the cost of a small down force gain) but I don’t think the barge boards area is the main cause of the drag in itself.

Definitely time to be gained from exploring those avenues for 2019 though.

max_speed
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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f1rules wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:46 am
Thats exactly the problem, they didnt know, or only the tip of the iceberg if at all, they had three arrogant sec rate tech leaders leading car development and conception and making everyone believe how good mclaren was, because, hey, we are mclaren. Final nail in the box was convincing zak to abandon honda and worse their gazillions of money leaving mclaren in a tunnel with a light so dim its barely vizible.
Performance wise, i dont think ren or honda will make the difference. Its the money and works status. Well atleast these three idiots incompetence and arrogance was called but at a price so high it will leave mclaren in the midfield for years and years to come.
For the first time in 25 years i dont care if i miss a gp. I missed multiple already, that never happened before never! To witness the stupidity at mclaren has been mind blowing. Al the way from the amazon episodes, FAIL mclaren looked just as idiotic as honda, to the video of learning french and my pu is muy bien, fail fail fail fail. On that uplifting post have a great day :-)
very well summaries my feelings as well.

f1rules
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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CLKGTR
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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M840TR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:44 pm
CLKGTR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:18 pm
M840TR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:48 am


Mercedes has a lower mainplane but raised outer section to weaken the tip vortex. Almost the exact opposite. The introduced the flat endplates in Spa.

https://imgr2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/M ... 192783.jpg
Yes, they tested the new sleek endplates in Spa, that's why I said 'they seem to continue to explore low drag evenue' :)

Regarding Mercedes rear wing comparison, I was reffering to Mercedes high downforce rear wing which has raised/thicker middle part of the mainplane leading edge.

https://imgr3.auto-motor-und-sport.de/M ... 191202.jpg
The mainplane isn't raised anywhere near to the extent of Mclaren. It's raised on the outer edges though, which is why it's called the spoon wing.
You are looking at the wrong wing, I'm not reffering to spoon rear wing on Mercedes. I compared the McLaren wing with Mercedes high downforce rear wing (I put picture with double support pillars) which, to less extent, also has raised mainplane leading edge (not outer edges like on spoon wing).

M840TR
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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CLKGTR wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:27 am
M840TR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:44 pm
CLKGTR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:18 pm


Yes, they tested the new sleek endplates in Spa, that's why I said 'they seem to continue to explore low drag evenue' :)

Regarding Mercedes rear wing comparison, I was reffering to Mercedes high downforce rear wing which has raised/thicker middle part of the mainplane leading edge.

https://imgr3.auto-motor-und-sport.de/M ... 191202.jpg
The mainplane isn't raised anywhere near to the extent of Mclaren. It's raised on the outer edges though, which is why it's called the spoon wing.
You are looking at the wrong wing, I'm not reffering to spoon rear wing on Mercedes. I compared the McLaren wing with Mercedes high downforce rear wing (I put picture with double support pillars) which, to less extent, also has raised mainplane leading edge (not outer edges like on spoon wing).
My good sir, I understand what you're saying. But I dismissed the similarity because on the Merc rear wing the raised mainplane is barely significant to be compared to Mclaren. Also that's a medium downforce RW from Russia.

M840TR
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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Jackles-UK wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:47 am
M840TR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:01 pm
The difference between low and high drag.

https://i.imgur.com/vruLL4T.jpg
Do we know the Ferrari as a particularly low drag chassis? It’s fast, sure, but that’s surely more to do with the best PU & deployment on the grid rather than the chassis.

Wouldn’t it make sense that the more elements and places the air is deflected/forced into vortices, the higher the drag will be? Maybe that is why the Mclaren is is more simple in this area (to avoid any further drag even at the cost of a small down force gain) but I don’t think the barge boards area is the main cause of the drag in itself.

Definitely time to be gained from exploring those avenues for 2019 though.
Yes we do. The data proves it. They increased the wheelbase to second longest on the grid for this exact reason. The shorter the turning radius, higher the drag.
Drag is a consequence of downforce but tyre wake management is important. Otherwise you'll have diffuser stall.
The Mcl33 has a lot of draggy bits that add up. Like the biggest brake ducts, shortest bargeboards, high DF rear wing etc etc.

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charliesmithhd
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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Is the high df rear wing a result of insufficient airflow to the rear of the car, so they have to gain more downforce by running a rear wing at a steeper angle

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diffuser
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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charliesmithhd wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:53 am
Is the high df rear wing a result of insufficient airflow to the rear of the car, so they have to gain more downforce by running a rear wing at a steeper angle
You can say the high df rear wing is as result of not enough rear df. The actual cause of that is not really known by us. We can speculate that they're not generating enough df at the diffuser and that is caused by a lack of air flow there/not sealing it and that starts at the mid wing but we don't know for sure. That is the general consensus held by a few here is that the midwing/sidepod/bargeboard area is lacking in design and is causing a lack of airflow to the diffuser hence lack of efficient df.

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diffuser
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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M840TR wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
Jackles-UK wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:47 am
M840TR wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:01 pm
The difference between low and high drag.

https://i.imgur.com/vruLL4T.jpg
Do we know the Ferrari as a particularly low drag chassis? It’s fast, sure, but that’s surely more to do with the best PU & deployment on the grid rather than the chassis.

Wouldn’t it make sense that the more elements and places the air is deflected/forced into vortices, the higher the drag will be? Maybe that is why the Mclaren is is more simple in this area (to avoid any further drag even at the cost of a small down force gain) but I don’t think the barge boards area is the main cause of the drag in itself.

Definitely time to be gained from exploring those avenues for 2019 though.
Yes we do. The data proves it. They increased the wheelbase to second longest on the grid for this exact reason. The shorter the turning radius, higher the drag.
Drag is a consequence of downforce but tyre wake management is important. Otherwise you'll have diffuser stall.
The Mcl33 has a lot of draggy bits that add up. Like the biggest brake ducts, shortest bargeboards, high DF rear wing etc etc.
Not sure how turning radius ties in to things .... I can see that with a longer wheelbase the curved angle(radius) of the bargeboard is larger. If you look straight down at the chassis from above, the bardgeboard forms a curved shape. The longer the wheelbase a more gradual curve or equivalent to less angle of a wing that bargeboard can be.

That being said McLaren have a longer wheel base than RBR. These are the 2017 numbers (I doudt McLaren have had time to change). https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... OKISe.html

These are 2018 number for the top teams ...F1 Contradicts themselves on RBR as it really hasn't changed from 2017 if you believe the previous url....https://www.motorsport.com/ca/f1/news/r ... e/3174239/

So wheelbase is one way of doing things. Obviously RBR have found another way. Longer wheelbase comes at a cost of more weight and larger turning radius which cause Merc issues at Monaco.

M840TR
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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diffuser wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:15 pm
M840TR wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:48 am
Jackles-UK wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:47 am


Do we know the Ferrari as a particularly low drag chassis? It’s fast, sure, but that’s surely more to do with the best PU & deployment on the grid rather than the chassis.

Wouldn’t it make sense that the more elements and places the air is deflected/forced into vortices, the higher the drag will be? Maybe that is why the Mclaren is is more simple in this area (to avoid any further drag even at the cost of a small down force gain) but I don’t think the barge boards area is the main cause of the drag in itself.

Definitely time to be gained from exploring those avenues for 2019 though.
Yes we do. The data proves it. They increased the wheelbase to second longest on the grid for this exact reason. The shorter the turning radius, higher the drag.
Drag is a consequence of downforce but tyre wake management is important. Otherwise you'll have diffuser stall.
The Mcl33 has a lot of draggy bits that add up. Like the biggest brake ducts, shortest bargeboards, high DF rear wing etc etc.
Not sure how turning radius ties in to things .... I can see that with a longer wheelbase the curved angle(radius) of the bargeboard is larger. If you look straight down at the chassis from above, the bardgeboard forms a curved shape. The longer the wheelbase a more gradual curve or equivalent to less angle of a wing that bargeboard can be.

That being said McLaren have a longer wheel base than RBR. These are the 2017 numbers (I doudt McLaren have had time to change). https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... OKISe.html

These are 2018 number for the top teams ...F1 Contradicts themselves on RBR as it really hasn't changed from 2017 if you believe the previous url....https://www.motorsport.com/ca/f1/news/r ... e/3174239/

So wheelbase is one way of doing things. Obviously RBR have found another way. Longer wheelbase comes at a cost of more weight and larger turning radius which cause Merc issues at Monaco.
The data is a bit hazy as you said so we're not sure whether Redbull increased its wheelbase or not. What we know is their bargeboards are longer and taller and have a sharp turning radius only at the the leading edge akin to Mercedes. What we also know about the Rb14 is that it has a lot of raw downforce from the floor and diffuser so they can afford to run a very skinny RW which compensates for the lack of straight line speed.
Coming back to the subject, the sharp turning radius is definitely a cause of drag. The air has a more obstructive path to travel before it reaches its desired path. But it's important to consider that it's only one among many factors that contribute to the issue. Others being very large brake ducts for the blown axle etc, big rear wing and so on.

Dipesh1995
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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Couple of flowvis shots from today:
Image

Image

Image

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ScrewCaptain27
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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Quite a bit of separation from the rear wing (Racecar Engineering):
Image
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M840TR
M840TR
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Re: McLaren MCL33

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ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:42 pm
Quite a bit of separation from the rear wing (Racecar Engineering):
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201810 ... 95f849.jpg
There's some on the upper flap but that's due to the gap between the two which they were probably tweaking with to reduce drag.