F1 Conrods

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: F1 Conrods

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Ah true, but my statement still holds.

saviour stivala
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Re: F1 Conrods

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:32 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:12 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 10:22 am
The era of the quest for ever higher engine RPM as the fastest way to increase outputs was reached or better say stopped when the combination of a bore of 98mm and a stroke of 39.8mm (bore/stroke ratio 0.406:1), a cylinder capacity of 300cc was used. This bore/stroke combination was used on the 3.0-litre V10 and carried over to the 2.4-litre V8.
It’s a struggle to get good / consistent combustion over 100mm bores at those engine speeds, with port injection. I think this is why you saw things converge on that 98-100mm bore size. ...
I think the previous poster meant that Mercedes jumped to 98 and then arranged a permanent freeze rule
helped by Renault (part-owned by Mercedes and by government(s))

did the Honda NR500 have a greater ratio of 'bore'/stroke ?
''Did the Honda NR500 have a greater ratio of 'bore/stroke?'. The NR500 125cc cylinder had an oval piston of 94.3mm * 41mm and a stroke of 36mm. Did it had a greater 'bore/stroke ratio?.

Babajaga
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Re: F1 Conrods

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Edit: Question answered.
Last edited by Babajaga on Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

PVDL
PVDL
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Location: Lake Forest, CA USA

Re: F1 Conrods

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Jon E36,

"Back on page 3 (I wish these posts were numbered! Is there a setting I am missing?) a WWII ME airplane rod was shared showing the serrated interface. My question remains though, what does that Pankl crossed serration pattern look like, and how in the world would you machine it? Any chance you have access to any images of that Pankl serrated interface to share?"

Not I, but I don't see the problem with correct fixturing and cutting tools. I suppose there is a waffle like section where the serrations cross, though the rod bolt bore surely eliminates that.

On another note, after going back and looking at the DB rod picture more closely, it appears that it is the needle/roller cage guide that has the serrations @ 90 degrees to the fork/blade rods, in other words, the rods have traditional serrations.

Cheers, PVDL

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: F1 Conrods

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Dec 29, 2021 9:58 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:32 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:12 pm

It’s a struggle to get good / consistent combustion over 100mm bores at those engine speeds, with port injection. I think this is why you saw things converge on that 98-100mm bore size. ...
I think the previous poster meant that Mercedes jumped to 98 and then arranged a permanent freeze rule
helped by Renault (part-owned by Mercedes and by government(s))

did the Honda NR500 have a greater ratio of 'bore'/stroke ?
''Did the Honda NR500 have a greater ratio of 'bore/stroke?'. The NR500 125cc cylinder had an oval piston of 94.3mm * 41mm and a stroke of 36mm. Did it had a greater 'bore/stroke ratio?.
Bore area / stroke ratio needs applying :lol:

That said, combustion works better in symmetrical pattern. They were cool engines though.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: F1 Conrods

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The FERRARI F1 V8 bore/stroke ratio of 2.52:1 was the nearest to that of the Honda NR500.

e36jon
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Location: California, USA

Re: F1 Conrods

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It's been a while since I've stumbled across anything new. Dawn Treader (Dawn Treader @DawnTreaderEng) put these up on his amazing twitter page.

Reunited with an old friend - angled joint face Conrod from 2003 FO110P (MP4-18). Angling the stud dropped the crank CL by 4mm. I did the reliability work on it which was a lot of fun.

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e36jon
e36jon
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Re: F1 Conrods

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I found another interesting rod & piston at a charity site, from a 2020 Ferrari SF1000. https://www.racinghalloffamecollection. ... od-piston/ If you've got $2,000 to spare it could be yours!

This is only the second modern turbo era rod that I've seen (See page one of the thread for an earlier Ferrari rod & piston. I have also included a single image of it at the bottom of this post.). The rod is beefy with an interesting bridge/bulge that spans the beam I would assume to improve buckling strength. It's a large solid mass vs. the typical rib so I'm curious why. Some sort of tuned inertia effect?

The last turbo set drew as much attention (OK, more!) for the piston as it did for the rod. I could see that happening again here as there is a lot happening with the piston. The website said all of the skirt coloration was due to heat but I don't think that's what we are seeing. This looks like a DLC coating of some sort which makes sense for thermal performance. The coating is also in the ring grooves and doesn't show any obvious wear.

I'll get out of the way and let you all share your knowledge.

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This is the first modern turbo V6 rod that I found, from an earlier version Ferrari. More images on page one of the thread.

Image
Last edited by e36jon on Wed May 11, 2022 4:06 pm, edited 4 times in total.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Re: F1 Conrods

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e36jon wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 3:10 am
I found another interesting rod & piston at a charity site, from a 2020 Ferrari SF1000. https://www.racinghalloffamecollection. ... od-piston/ If you've got $2,000 to spare it could be yours!

This is only the second modern turbo era rod that I've seen. The rod is beefy with an interesting bridge/bulge that spans the beam. It's a solid mass so I'm curious why. Some sort of tuned inertia effect?

The last turbo set drew as much attention (OK, more!) for the piston as it did for the rod. I could see that happening again here as there is a lot happening with the piston. The website said all of the skirt coloration was due to heat but I don't think that's what we are seeing. This is a coating of some sort.

I'll get out of the way and let you all share your knowledge.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/919x ... JcEnKC.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/687x ... HMczFY.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/972x ... 0AbWJD.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/755x ... WVOMB8.jpg
Shows how many holes in the TJI and vertically placed (as of 2020 anyway)
And the scuffing on the upper lands show the reduction in clearance trying to reduce the unburnt fraction IMHO.
Wonder about the material, coatings and or treatment of the crown??

e36jon
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Location: California, USA

Re: F1 Conrods

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Greetings Johnny comelately

Please check out page one of the thread. I found an earlier Ferrari rod & piston for sale online and posted it there. The piston seems to have had the same crown coating and several folks weighed in on what it might be. A lot of the discussion of that rod and piston is relevant to this set...

Thanks for posting!

Jon

Tornado220
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Re: F1 Conrods

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e36jon wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 3:10 am
I found another interesting rod & piston ....

... The rod is beefy with an interesting bridge/bulge that spans the beam. It's a solid mass so I'm curious why. Some sort of tuned inertia effect?

I have seen a cross bulge like that before but only once and that is on a 1275 Innocenti Mini, I think from about 1973 till about 1979 "ish" but what might be interesting to you is that both are Italian companies, maybe some link there did the designer of the above rod have a past history with Innocenti ?

Edax
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Re: F1 Conrods

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e36jon wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 5:05 am
Greetings Johnny comelately

Please check out page one of the thread. I found an earlier Ferrari rod & piston for sale online and posted it there. The piston seems to have had the same crown coating and several folks weighed in on what it might be. A lot of the discussion of that rod and piston is relevant to this set...

Thanks for posting!

Jon
Interesting.

It is difficult to say without having the pieces at hand. But the purple on the side looks like interference coloring, basically all that says there is a thin layer of material on it with a different refractive index. What that material is (carbon, refractory, metal oxide) is impossible to tell because many materials produce the same iridescent blue/purple lustre at the right thickness.

The yellow crown on the other hand looks to be a real material feature and there are not that many options. As mentioned before in the thread it resembles (PVD, CVD) TiN or TICrN coatings, which I find difficult to understand. The main use of these materials is as a cheap way to make stuff look more interesting, whether it is showerheads, doorknobs or drillbits. Performance wise there are usually much better options. A copper or gold alloy eg Au-Ni plating would also match color wise.

My best guess would be that it either is used as a reflector or that there is an insert or a coating hidden below it which needs to be protected from erosion or both.

What the best material would be depends mainly on the matching with the substrate and local temperatures. I think if it was possible I would go for a gold alloy, since TIN is much less compliant, spalls more easily, and has a greater potential to create secondary wear damage when pieces come off. But without knowing the exact purpose that is just a guess.

Does anyone has an idea what the base material is where the coating is applied on? That would narrow down the possible coatings.

PhillipM
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Re: F1 Conrods

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Edax wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:00 pm
The yellow crown on the other hand looks to be a real material feature and there are not that many options. As mentioned before in the thread it resembles (PVD, CVD) TiN or TICrN coatings, which I find difficult to understand. The main use of these materials is as a cheap way to make stuff look more interesting, whether it is showerheads, doorknobs or drillbits. Performance wise there are usually much better options. A copper or gold alloy eg Au-Ni plating would also match color wise.
The main use is wear and heat resistance/insulation, there's a lot of reason to use multilayer coatings like that for the same reasons.

Edax
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Re: F1 Conrods

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PhillipM wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:32 pm
Edax wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:00 pm
The yellow crown on the other hand looks to be a real material feature and there are not that many options. As mentioned before in the thread it resembles (PVD, CVD) TiN or TICrN coatings, which I find difficult to understand. The main use of these materials is as a cheap way to make stuff look more interesting, whether it is showerheads, doorknobs or drillbits. Performance wise there are usually much better options. A copper or gold alloy eg Au-Ni plating would also match color wise.
The main use is wear and heat resistance/insulation, there's a lot of reason to use multilayer coatings like that for the same reasons.
That makes sense from an application viewpoint.

But TiN really is not that good an insulator, and if you try to make it thick you will struggle to control the stress. Similarly it is also not the best wear resistant or friction reducing coating.

25 years ago I was working in a shop which was also coating F1 engine and exhaust parts with some highly exciting stuff for thermal control. Personally I would find it a bit disappointing if they ended up with something as mundane as TiN.

Unless the material rules have become so restrictive that they exclude other options, I suspect that the layer is just a reflector and that there is some thermal trickery going on below it.

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Big Tea
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Re: F1 Conrods

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Not been following this thread, just seen the heading and recalled it when I saw this pop up on youtube

If it irrelevant or has been presented please excuse me

When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.