F1technical.net

While reading about the changes to aero in 2019 to promote overtaking, I was struck by the thought that it will not help at all, as being tucked up behind another car to slipstream will cause overheating.

I mean, when I watch the races, they all will hang back about 1.2s from the guy in front of them just to avoid overheating.

Is it time to add a spec (300ish mm, set RPM in each side pod) to the cars as well? That would help the overheating when following closely, and the in-wash front wings leaving a clean(ish) wake alongside while passing.

I know the obvious outcome of taking advantage of this, but it would be the same for everyone, and would probably lead to super tiny side pod inlets.

Thoughts?

I'd be inclined to think the temperature of the dirty air is a bigger issue than the volume and pressure entering the sidepod.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

seventhsin wrote: ↑

23 Jun 2018, 07:40

I'd be inclined to think the temperature of the dirty air is a bigger issue than the volume and pressure entering the sidepod.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

A fan could draw air from an obtuse angle (anything but head on) to prevent that I would think, but I'd speculate that it is more about turbulence not allowing the front wing/ suspension from properly directing the air where it is needed. I think that the smaller the side pod opening, the more controlled the incoming air must be to drive enough volume into it.

Zynerji wrote: ↑

23 Jun 2018, 04:18

While reading about the changes to aero in 2019 to promote overtaking, I was struck by the thought that it will not help at all, as being tucked up behind another car to slipstream will cause overheating.

I mean, when I watch the races, they all will hang back about 1.2s from the guy in front of them just to avoid overheating.

Is it time to add a spec (300ish mm, set RPM in each side pod) to the cars as well? That would help the overheating when following closely, and the in-wash front wings leaving a clean(ish) wake alongside while passing.

I know the obvious outcome of taking advantage of this, but it would be the same for everyone, and would probably lead to super tiny side pod inlets.

Thoughts?

It’s not mainly the PU but more the brakes and tires. If you run in dirty air, you’re down on downforce and your tires start scrubbing more.

Zynerji wrote: ↑

23 Jun 2018, 04:18

While reading about the changes to aero in 2019 to promote overtaking, I was struck by the thought that it will not help at all, as being tucked up behind another car to slipstream will cause overheating.

I mean, when I watch the races, they all will hang back about 1.2s from the guy in front of them just to avoid overheating.

Is it time to add a spec (300ish mm, set RPM in each side pod) to the cars as well? That would help the overheating when following closely, and the in-wash front wings leaving a clean(ish) wake alongside while passing.

I know the obvious outcome of taking advantage of this, but it would be the same for everyone, and would probably lead to super tiny side pod inlets.

Thoughts?

It's something I've thought of before myself... it would have to be deployed like DRS - whereby the fan can only work within a certain distance of a car ahead - otherwise it's used all the time and the cooling is just optimised with the fan.

I think there's a certain heat soak effect though - the car infront is blowing hot air from tyres/cooling/brakes/exhaust onto the car behind - short term this isn't a major issue but when following for lap-after-lap-after-lap the car behind sees temperature increasing beyond a safe limit. So is the issue the overheating or that being unable to pass (even with a car advantage) for 5-10 laps causes overheating?

I don't think just adding fans would be beneficial - there are more prescient issues, like the aero of the car and effect of the wake, then the tyres are secondary - these blasted Pirelli's just can't cope with the understeer associated with drafting, it just causes them to overheat and then they cook or grain and the guys lose grip. Fix the wake, sort out the tyres... then maybe overheating won't be an issue.

At the speed you're following another car down the straight, all cooling fans are doing is blocking airflow. Cooling fans are to help at relatively low speeds, they create blockage when you go faster.

Even if you overcame that with really fast/powerful fans, teams would just slim the sidepods down until the cooling was the same again.

PhillipM wrote: ↑

23 Jun 2018, 12:13

At the speed you're following another car down the straight, all cooling fans are doing is blocking airflow. Cooling fans are to help at relatively low speeds, they create blockage when you go faster.

Even if you overcame that with really fast/powerful fans, teams would just slim the sidepods down until the cooling was the same again.

I don't see this as insurmountable. If smaller side pod openings come with the caveat that there is less engine overheating while running nose-to-tail, that's a huge win for the sport. Twin spec, 3rd party, 300mm fans at a constant, high RPM changes nothing in respect to engine performance, it just allows for a less draggy inlet, and could allow closer running.

If the tyres and brakes are the real overheating culprit (which I doubt), there really isn't a way to solve that without enclosing the wheels, and wouldn't have any negative effect concerning a fan on the radiators...

It wouldn't change anything for cooling, they'd still run right on the edge and overheat in traffic.
I've twin 16" (400mm) fans on my car and they create more blockage than they help with above about 80mph.

PhillipM wrote: ↑

23 Jun 2018, 19:18

It wouldn't change anything for cooling, they'd still run right on the edge and overheat in traffic.
I've twin 16" (400mm) fans on my car and they create more blockage than they help with above about 80mph.

Is it a bespoke racecar, or are you genuinely trying to compare mass produced commuter car technology to the pinnacle of automotive engineering?

It's a bespoke racecar.

You can keep your - you're going to need it.

PhillipM wrote: ↑

23 Jun 2018, 20:19

It's a bespoke racecar.

You can keep your - you're going to need it.

I was asking for clarification.

So, what F1 car is yours then if it is worthy of a direct comparison?

Edit: crybaby downvote? Classy.

You've got nigh-on 1000bhp available to you if needed to give you decent cooling when following another car down the straight, what are you expecting 5kw of fans to manage?

PhillipM wrote: ↑

23 Jun 2018, 12:13

At the speed you're following another car down the straight, all cooling fans are doing is blocking airflow. Cooling fans are to help at relatively low speeds, they create blockage when you go faster.

Even if you overcame that with really fast/powerful fans, teams would just slim the sidepods down until the cooling was the same again.

Haven’t done the calculation, but I am inclined to agree with you. It is not easy to make a fan that still has a positive net effect at 300km/hr.

Besides if you are going to put fans that powerfull on the car to aid overtaking, it would be better to use them to either to create more downforce, or to provide direct propulsion.

I'm not saying to go full turbine, but it could be done I'm sure. You would end up with a net thrust coming out of the back of the engine cover, so you may get some under wing blowing and downforce generation from that.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but seeing some actual mathematics instead of just gut feelings would be fantastic and would easily make me stop barking up the tree.

A far simpler solution would be to regulate the size, shape and placement of the side pod intakes, or have a mandated cooling capacity test. The prior would be simpler to implement but would limit development, the later would be more complex to regulate but would offer greater design freedom.