Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Jolle
Jolle
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Stu wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:32 pm
Jolle wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:28 am
Stu wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:23 am


There is a very good reason for that, but it is political so we cannot talk about it.
Aside from political, it’s also impossible not to implement something like that.

Let’s say, in 2050 all the commuters have their electric company car, they all get home at around six-ish and plug in their cars. The overcapacity needed for that first hour would be so big, that you’ll need extra powerplants just to cope with that short recharge every day.

When I was at uni, the power would go down every morning around half past eight.. turned out, all the teachers were turning on their Senseo machines to make themselves a cup of coffee…
As far as the UK requirement goes it becomes political because domestic solar generation cannot be used, by law. Only a matter of time before Excise Duty (at above domestic rate) is applied to EV charging at home. Sneaky.
But that is political…..
I'm not denying the political element (or the commercial/tax possibilities). But you must agree that with this new addition to the power grid, a new way of thinking how to use it must be made. We just have to be critical how. The good way would be (in my opinion) to have the opportunity to use cars as a buffer, so the grid is less dependent of (very polluting) coal and gas turbines and a way to get power of the grid when it's cheap etc etc.

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Stu
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Totally agree with that, the big solution is to require new homes to be built with PV solar, Axial wind and (if/where possible) ground-source thermal in combination with battery storage (and the EV should extend that capacity when plugged in). Existing homeowners should be ‘encouraged’ to add the same. In the long run it becomes a far more cost-effective method of expanding the grid (which is a mammoth undertaking) while at the same time encouraging homeowners to be efficient with their power consumption (prioritise needs over wants).
Just my opinion (and one that I have held for a long time).
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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The problem is that you are using your hugely expensive car battery to prop up the grid, whereas a proper grid battery costs around 1/3 of a car battery per unit of storage. So the EV owner is subsidising the grid.

Jolle
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Greg Locock wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:07 pm
The problem is that you are using your hugely expensive car battery to prop up the grid, whereas a proper grid battery costs around 1/3 of a car battery per unit of storage. So the EV owner is subsidising the grid.
There are different scenarios of course. One is a very dynamic one, where you can rent out the storage in your car as a damper for the grid. This is probably what you are referring to and for a lot of people not ideal. But, for another scenario you plug in your car in at 6, knowing you want it charged at seven in the morning and the system is charging it with overcapacity of the grid. With enough cars on the grid, this should be more then enough.
A third scenario is that your car is your personal storage damper, especially when you don’t use it often. You can run your house from it and buy in power when it’s cheapest (or use your solar panels.

In a few years time discarded car batteries are probably also will be put in use for this on scale. The Amsterdam Arena already has something like this in place for concerts, where they have a ton of old leaf batteries providing the peak amps for basdrum hits. Energy suppliers charge a lot for peak power..

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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Jolle wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:26 pm
Greg Locock wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:07 pm
The problem is that you are using your hugely expensive car battery to prop up the grid, whereas a proper grid battery costs around 1/3 of a car battery per unit of storage. So the EV owner is subsidising the grid.
There are different scenarios of course. One is a very dynamic one, where you can rent out the storage in your car as a damper for the grid. This is probably what you are referring to and for a lot of people not ideal. But, for another scenario you plug in your car in at 6, knowing you want it charged at seven in the morning and the system is charging it with overcapacity of the grid. With enough cars on the grid, this should be more then enough.
A third scenario is that your car is your personal storage damper, especially when you don’t use it often. You can run your house from it and buy in power when it’s cheapest (or use your solar panels.

In a few years time discarded car batteries are probably also will be put in use for this on scale. The Amsterdam Arena already has something like this in place for concerts, where they have a ton of old leaf batteries providing the peak amps for basdrum hits. Energy suppliers charge a lot for peak power..
There is also the 'discount' option You allow us to take power from you at the 'going rate' and when you recharge you get off peak (say) 1.2 -1.4 units for each taken depending on when you want them.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Here in Australia, virtual power plants are growing in popularity - I've ordered a Tesla PW2 and signed on as part of AGL's Victorian VPP which gave me a small discount on the cost of the battery and a few other perks.

Part of the agreement is that they won't take more than 20% of my storage capacity per day so I don't have to worry about them draining it and leaving me with no stored power.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Zynerji
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:55 pm
Here in Australia, virtual power plants are growing in popularity - I've ordered a Tesla PW2 and signed on as part of AGL's Victorian VPP which gave me a small discount on the cost of the battery and a few other perks.

Part of the agreement is that they won't take more than 20% of my storage capacity per day so I don't have to worry about them draining it and leaving me with no stored power.
Watching the Australian gov right now would make me terrified of putting any trust in them. 20% today quickly becomes 100% due to a declared "emergency"...😬

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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The one I joined is a private vpp, there are State gov run vpp’s but not in Victoria where I live.

The fed gov has been MIA ever since Scotty from Marketing took over. In his own words, “I don’t hold a hose mate”. Sums up his entire Tenure.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:55 pm
Here in Australia, virtual power plants are growing in popularity - I've ordered a Tesla PW2 and signed on as part of AGL's Victorian VPP which gave me a small discount on the cost of the battery and a few other perks.

Part of the agreement is that they won't take more than 20% of my storage capacity per day so I don't have to worry about them draining it and leaving me with no stored power.
Interesting, what was the discount?

I´ve been searching for alternatives to use a EV battery as a home storage too, I tought there was some car wich made it possible, but can´t find any now so maybe I´m wrong. That was after doing a search for recycled EV batteries, but the only site I found sell those batteries at a higher price than a brand new liion battery for home ](*,)

There´s a two way charger to use any EV as a home battery wich is the best idea I can think about, but the price is so high (>20k€) it´s absurd

With this prices I´m going to give up and install only some few PV panels without any battery

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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I can’t recall the specifics, but the total installed cost was $12k AUD. It was only about $1k off but considering how hard they are to get ATM, I’m hair with that price.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Interesting, looks like city buses using hydrogen are 6x more expensive than pure BEV buses.

The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Yes it does at the moment. CSIRO and various other parties are getting fairly excited about pV+water=H2, and are claiming $2 per kg as a target. Then they have to move it from the outback to wherever it is going to be used. As I've said before converting it to methane or ammonia seems to me to be the best approach for distribution.

There are a long list of problems to be solved, not least exactly how much extra it will cost to get water that is pure enough to start with.

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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In this case it was city buses, I do think that for long haul trucking, bus and rail transport, hydrogen makes sense. Should be interesting to watch this develop.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Stu
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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djos wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:56 am
In this case it was city buses, I do think that for long haul trucking, bus and rail transport, hydrogen makes sense. Should be interesting to watch this develop.
Mercedes have been working on this for years, they had prototype Fuel Cell buses in operation over 20 years ago, back then they had a quoted ‘price’ of £1 million.
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Stu wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:17 am
djos wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:56 am
In this case it was city buses, I do think that for long haul trucking, bus and rail transport, hydrogen makes sense. Should be interesting to watch this develop.
Mercedes have been working on this for years, they had prototype Fuel Cell buses in operation over 20 years ago, back then they had a quoted ‘price’ of £1 million.
It’s not the upfront cost that is the issue in this video, it’s the ongoing costs of FCV buses are 6x those of BEV buses.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.