2022 Tyres Thread

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mclaren111
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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mzso wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:37 pm
cooken wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:09 pm
I'd love to be wrong, but I have a bad feeling that Pirelli yet again will have underestimated the rate of development from the teams, and we will see the same old story play out with pressures ratcheting up through the season.
There's always a first, maybe Pirelli won't miscalculate for once.

:lol: :lol:

So you're an optimist... :D :D

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mclaren111
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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djos
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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Cheers, it was very informative.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Slo Poke
Slo Poke
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Re: 2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:48 am
Ryar wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:45 am
Stu wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:41 pm


The tyres will not have a hugely different sidewall depth (current 13”wheels use 660mm tall tyres; new 18” wheels will use 720mm tyres) - there is roughly only 35mm less sidewall depth with the new wheels/tyres.
Exactly! It's a misnomer to think the sidewall is reduced by half. With bigger wheels, it has expanded. Under load though, how much of a pain this would be for the suspension travel, remains to be seen. Heat dissipation shouldn't be as big an issue due relatively less space between the wheel and the inner area of the tyre. It could also be a a pain if the tyres are unable to keep temperature, unless the oft under performer Pirelli has managed to widen the working range of the compounds. Heat transfer from brakes could potentially be a headache as the spacing between the brakes and the rim is bigger. It would potentially mean less heat transfer from brakes to tyres, causing tyre warm up issues. Alternatively, due to larger brakes with bigger wheels, the brake performance would be much greater, inducing a lot more load to heat up. It remains to be seen how all of this is going to affect driver and car performance.
I am a bit surprise this nice discussion ended in a team thread.

My 2 cents:
- Wheel heating will be 100% different. There is little to no more influence by the brakes. Things like "brake magic" to heat the front wheels will not be possible anymore. I think teams can not transfer much of the pre 22 knowledge and tricks on tire warmup to 22.
- Less mass, less volume...I fear the tires will be more diva to handle. I can not see an argument why they should not overheat quicker.
- In some years the blankets will be banned. I would be surprised if Pirelli did not work into this direction and worked already on the sidewall of the tire to prepare for this. That should make it a bit less sensitive to lower temps, but as above...I fear the issue is when you stress the tire.
The black art of brake magic will actually be enhanced by wheel, tyre size this year! Rare, medium or well-done whatever the driver desires.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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Slo Poke wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:02 am
basti313 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:48 am
Ryar wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:45 am
Exactly! It's a misnomer to think the sidewall is reduced by half. With bigger wheels, it has expanded. Under load though, how much of a pain this would be for the suspension travel, remains to be seen. Heat dissipation shouldn't be as big an issue due relatively less space between the wheel and the inner area of the tyre. It could also be a a pain if the tyres are unable to keep temperature, unless the oft under performer Pirelli has managed to widen the working range of the compounds. Heat transfer from brakes could potentially be a headache as the spacing between the brakes and the rim is bigger. It would potentially mean less heat transfer from brakes to tyres, causing tyre warm up issues. Alternatively, due to larger brakes with bigger wheels, the brake performance would be much greater, inducing a lot more load to heat up. It remains to be seen how all of this is going to affect driver and car performance.
I am a bit surprise this nice discussion ended in a team thread.

My 2 cents:
- Wheel heating will be 100% different. There is little to no more influence by the brakes. Things like "brake magic" to heat the front wheels will not be possible anymore. I think teams can not transfer much of the pre 22 knowledge and tricks on tire warmup to 22.
- Less mass, less volume...I fear the tires will be more diva to handle. I can not see an argument why they should not overheat quicker.
- In some years the blankets will be banned. I would be surprised if Pirelli did not work into this direction and worked already on the sidewall of the tire to prepare for this. That should make it a bit less sensitive to lower temps, but as above...I fear the issue is when you stress the tire.
The black art of brake magic will actually be enhanced by wheel, tyre size this year! Rare, medium or well-done whatever the driver desires.
What do you mean by that? Do you mean that because the wheel covers and larger air gap make transferring brake heat to the wheel easier?
Saishū kōnā

Slo Poke
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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Godlameroso My Friend:
The black art of brake magic is very much a mechanical concept. It’s as near as damn-it is to swearing to a regular ABS system but without any improvement to the car’s ability to slow down or stop,.! Good eh!
Aye! Get this!
Guess where both RedBull and murk obtained the enlightenment to it, from! Go on,.. give it a go... you’ll never guess and those Creeps will never admit it.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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Slo Poke wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:08 pm
Godlameroso My Friend:
The black art of brake magic is very much a mechanical concept. It’s as near as damn-it is to swearing to a regular ABS system but without any improvement to the car’s ability to slow down or stop,.! Good eh!
Aye! Get this!
Guess where both RedBull and murk obtained the enlightenment to it, from! Go on,.. give it a go... you’ll never guess and those Creeps will never admit it.
Would I be wrong to think air brake like?
Saishū kōnā

Slo Poke
Slo Poke
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:17 pm
Slo Poke wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:08 pm
Godlameroso My Friend:
The black art of brake magic is very much a mechanical concept. It’s as near as damn-it is to swearing to a regular ABS system but without any improvement to the car’s ability to slow down or stop,.! Good eh!
Aye! Get this!
Guess where both RedBull and murk obtained the enlightenment to it, from! Go on,.. give it a go... you’ll never guess and those Creeps will never admit it.
Would I be wrong to think air brake like?
Yes, very wrong! The braking systems on either car in question are absolutely normal. Strewth! That’s odd! Doesn’t,.. erm,.. isn’t possible.
Tiz!

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BassVirolla
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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Slo Poke wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:27 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:17 pm
Slo Poke wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:08 pm
Godlameroso My Friend:
The black art of brake magic is very much a mechanical concept. It’s as near as damn-it is to swearing to a regular ABS system but without any improvement to the car’s ability to slow down or stop,.! Good eh!
Aye! Get this!
Guess where both RedBull and murk obtained the enlightenment to it, from! Go on,.. give it a go... you’ll never guess and those Creeps will never admit it.
Would I be wrong to think air brake like?
Yes, very wrong! The braking systems on either car in question are absolutely normal. Strewth! That’s odd! Doesn’t,.. erm,.. isn’t possible.
Tiz!

Are we playing riddles? I'd like to know what is "brake magic"... If you really know.

basti313
basti313
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Re: 2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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Slo Poke wrote:
Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:02 am
basti313 wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:48 am
Ryar wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:45 am
Exactly! It's a misnomer to think the sidewall is reduced by half. With bigger wheels, it has expanded. Under load though, how much of a pain this would be for the suspension travel, remains to be seen. Heat dissipation shouldn't be as big an issue due relatively less space between the wheel and the inner area of the tyre. It could also be a a pain if the tyres are unable to keep temperature, unless the oft under performer Pirelli has managed to widen the working range of the compounds. Heat transfer from brakes could potentially be a headache as the spacing between the brakes and the rim is bigger. It would potentially mean less heat transfer from brakes to tyres, causing tyre warm up issues. Alternatively, due to larger brakes with bigger wheels, the brake performance would be much greater, inducing a lot more load to heat up. It remains to be seen how all of this is going to affect driver and car performance.
I am a bit surprise this nice discussion ended in a team thread.

My 2 cents:
- Wheel heating will be 100% different. There is little to no more influence by the brakes. Things like "brake magic" to heat the front wheels will not be possible anymore. I think teams can not transfer much of the pre 22 knowledge and tricks on tire warmup to 22.
- Less mass, less volume...I fear the tires will be more diva to handle. I can not see an argument why they should not overheat quicker.
- In some years the blankets will be banned. I would be surprised if Pirelli did not work into this direction and worked already on the sidewall of the tire to prepare for this. That should make it a bit less sensitive to lower temps, but as above...I fear the issue is when you stress the tire.
The black art of brake magic will actually be enhanced by wheel, tyre size this year! Rare, medium or well-done whatever the driver desires.
Can you please bring any technical argument for this? I do not feel this game you try to play leads to anything.

In most teams "brake magic" was simply a shift of brake pressure to the front. This basically overheated the fron brake. Together with accordingly shaped rims with doubled surface, holes in the drums that vent at lower/no speeds into the rim and sometimes even Al tape they tried to get this heat into the rim and tire.

Image

My argument is, that now they will not have the shaped rims anymore and the drums need to vent to the center. So practically no more heat transfer from brake to rim.

Slo Poke
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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BassVirolla:
Basti313:

BassVirolla you’ve made old Slo Poke feel like an admonished child, whatever were you thinking asking for goodies in such a way?
As for you Basti313 you did at least have the manners to include the word Please in your request.

So! Brake Magic...
Back in early two thousand thirteen, Mercedes were as busy as you like destroying the rubber on the rear axle of their car. During which time the acquisition of Pole positions was a basic normality, which other teams didn’t seem to mind too much about because two or three laps into the actual race their cars overheated the rear tyres and they became easily passable. So far! We are all in agreement, right. Now Mercedes Brackely, I hate to have to admit, are not fools so I took it for granted that the rear wheels were attached to the car in a right and correct way and what with Hamilton being, at that point in time, a driver I’d cathartically chosen to assist along since the death of my Mother, I sat to give the Mercedes problem some thought. That decision led to a letter being sent in to Brackely explaining what was happening. That happened about a week and a half before the Barcelona race, after which Mercedes hung around afterwards and conducted the so-called illegal tyre test. It’s widely referred to as that but in actual fact it was an engine test. One car would have been fitted with an adapted engine to burn oil and the other car would have been their normal race engine. As advised the tyre condition on the adapted engine, obviously I’d say, displayed much improved tyre wear characteristics. Hence the saga of oil burning. Some teams quite frankly didn’t understand what they were doing, Ferrari being one such team at the time, whilst RedBull failed to even bother themselves with it. In fact RedBull only learnt what was what during 2021 as they openly admitted as much.
So anyway! Oil burning simply slows the burn or detonation time down and as such the crankshaft has just slightly more time to move sideways away from the line of decent of the piston above it. As it then reaches the three o’clock position it becomes more aligned with the speed of the descending piston, which in itself marks the end of a torque-spike. That torque-spike is then followed by five more as regular as clockwork, which leads to a buildup or culmination of heat on the surface of the tyre tread. (Without the letter to Brackely Mercedes were on the brink of having the mat being pulled from beneath them, or so I believe.)
Actual Brake Magic itself is merely the transmission of rotational vibration caused by the above, being transmitted through the chassis to the front wheels, or contact patch to be exact. Additives are used these days instead of oil and I very strongly believe the so-called sexy bulges are how these additives are curtailed for brake magic benefit and induced to the engine for tyre preservation purposes during the race.
Obviously I don’t know the exact details of how things are done as I’ve not been anywhere near RedBull or Mercedes and they haven’t been anywhere, in any shape or form, near me.

I Sincerely hope that helps anyone that cares to read it. At the very least, it’s something to mock, sneer and jeer at or perhaps ridicule or maybe even plagiarise.

TTFN

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BassVirolla
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:48 pm
BassVirolla:
Basti313:

BassVirolla you’ve made old Slo Poke feel like an admonished child, whatever were you thinking asking for goodies in such a way?
Excuse me, I wasn't trying to be rude. Only that I found weird to make such circumlocution in a technical forum.

I've read some of your posts, and I suspect that we are from cultures far apart (not only in kilometers). In my land is usual to go straight to the matter and not leaving space for doubts or innecessary excess of courtesy.

Edit: As a straight translation, where I'm from, "i would" "I'd" is not such asking for in a rude manner. More as "if you like to".

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cirrusflyer
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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BassVirolla wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:43 pm
Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:48 pm
BassVirolla:
Basti313:

BassVirolla you’ve made old Slo Poke feel like an admonished child, whatever were you thinking asking for goodies in such a way?
Excuse me, I wasn't trying to be rude. Only that I found weird to make such circumlocution in a technical forum.

I've read some of your posts, and I suspect that we are from cultures far apart (not only in kilometers). In my land is usual to go straight to the matter and not leaving space for doubts or innecessary excess of courtesy.

Edit: As a straight translation, where I'm from, "i would" "I'd" is not such asking for in a rude manner. More as "if you like to".
Well, SloPoke promised us explanation why RedBull will win last years championship.
At the begining of last season he said that he knows some sicrets that MB did not wont and he gave those to RB and those will be the gamechanger.
Max is champion, so Slo Poke, what is this sicret???
Pleas tell us!!! Pleas!
If flying were the language of man, soaring would be its poetry.
It's all about technology!
When you go fast, do not hesitate to go faster!

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BassVirolla
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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cirrusflyer wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:56 pm
BassVirolla wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:43 pm
Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:48 pm
BassVirolla:
Basti313:

BassVirolla you’ve made old Slo Poke feel like an admonished child, whatever were you thinking asking for goodies in such a way?
Excuse me, I wasn't trying to be rude. Only that I found weird to make such circumlocution in a technical forum.

I've read some of your posts, and I suspect that we are from cultures far apart (not only in kilometers). In my land is usual to go straight to the matter and not leaving space for doubts or innecessary excess of courtesy.

Edit: As a straight translation, where I'm from, "i would" "I'd" is not such asking for in a rude manner. More as "if you like to".
Well, SloPoke promised us explanation why RedBull will win last years championship.
At the begining of last season he said that he knows some sicrets that MB did not wont and he gave those to RB and those will be the gamechanger.
Max is champion, so Slo Poke, what is this sicret???
Pleas tell us!!! Pleas!
Right, I had read such posts. I remember, but I suspect we are strolling quite a bit off topic...

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Airshifter
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:48 pm
BassVirolla:
Basti313:

BassVirolla you’ve made old Slo Poke feel like an admonished child, whatever were you thinking asking for goodies in such a way?
As for you Basti313 you did at least have the manners to include the word Please in your request.

So! Brake Magic...
Back in early two thousand thirteen, Mercedes were as busy as you like destroying the rubber on the rear axle of their car. During which time the acquisition of Pole positions was a basic normality, which other teams didn’t seem to mind too much about because two or three laps into the actual race their cars overheated the rear tyres and they became easily passable. So far! We are all in agreement, right. Now Mercedes Brackely, I hate to have to admit, are not fools so I took it for granted that the rear wheels were attached to the car in a right and correct way and what with Hamilton being, at that point in time, a driver I’d cathartically chosen to assist along since the death of my Mother, I sat to give the Mercedes problem some thought. That decision led to a letter being sent in to Brackely explaining what was happening. That happened about a week and a half before the Barcelona race, after which Mercedes hung around afterwards and conducted the so-called illegal tyre test. It’s widely referred to as that but in actual fact it was an engine test. One car would have been fitted with an adapted engine to burn oil and the other car would have been their normal race engine. As advised the tyre condition on the adapted engine, obviously I’d say, displayed much improved tyre wear characteristics. Hence the saga of oil burning. Some teams quite frankly didn’t understand what they were doing, Ferrari being one such team at the time, whilst RedBull failed to even bother themselves with it. In fact RedBull only learnt what was what during 2021 as they openly admitted as much.
So anyway! Oil burning simply slows the burn or detonation time down and as such the crankshaft has just slightly more time to move sideways away from the line of decent of the piston above it. As it then reaches the three o’clock position it becomes more aligned with the speed of the descending piston, which in itself marks the end of a torque-spike. That torque-spike is then followed by five more as regular as clockwork, which leads to a buildup or culmination of heat on the surface of the tyre tread. (Without the letter to Brackely Mercedes were on the brink of having the mat being pulled from beneath them, or so I believe.)
Actual Brake Magic itself is merely the transmission of rotational vibration caused by the above, being transmitted through the chassis to the front wheels, or contact patch to be exact. Additives are used these days instead of oil and I very strongly believe the so-called sexy bulges are how these additives are curtailed for brake magic benefit and induced to the engine for tyre preservation purposes during the race.
Obviously I don’t know the exact details of how things are done as I’ve not been anywhere near RedBull or Mercedes and they haven’t been anywhere, in any shape or form, near me.

I Sincerely hope that helps anyone that cares to read it. At the very least, it’s something to mock, sneer and jeer at or perhaps ridicule or maybe even plagiarise.

TTFN
So you're stating that a change in the engine burn characteristics is what heats the tires through the vibration transmission through the car?
Last edited by Airshifter on Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.