Burning coolant fluid

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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afaik
the methanol part would have been F1-illegal (in the 80s)
it was water-only

on the dragstrip you'd use methanol-only (as water has no fuel value)

aviation used/uses methanol/water (ICAO Methmix) ie water as a cheap coolant and methanol to stop water freezing
a poster wrote that ...
Australian Harriers used water-only as it was hot and the tank in a hot position (and methanol corrosive to airframes)

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strad
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Tommy
Drag racers years ago used water only for it's cooling effect and in their shade tree minds it had that one molecule of oxygen as well.
I know, I know but that was the thinking. It didn't last long.
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Maritimer
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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strad wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:06 pm
Thanks Maritimer;
As an old time drag racer I am aware of the mixing of alcohol and water. However there has been the use of straight water to cool things as well. But you are correct that drag racers often used a mixture. As I said though it usually required plumbing that scrutneering would spot.
Of course the guys in F1 are pretty sharp on hiding things but I doubt they are doing it. What is your opinion?
I suppose it would depend on how badly they wanted water injection and how much they were willing to spend. Lots of ways they could hide lines within lines and such, have the drinks system run it somehow, etc. I should state I have no idea how water injection would work with these lean burn engines that want to maintain high temps though.

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:15 pm
afaik
the methanol part would have been F1-illegal (in the 80s)
it was water-only

on the dragstrip you'd use methanol-only (as water has no fuel value)

aviation used/uses methanol/water (ICAO Methmix) ie water as a cheap coolant and methanol to stop water freezing
a poster wrote that ...
Australian Harriers used water-only as it was hot and the tank in a hot position (and methanol corrosive to airframes)
Water/meth is far more common than straight methanol since most folks add it after they have a well tuned setup and are after some more gains. Methanol is usually the fuel itself, I havent heard of anyone injecting it with a fogger into the intake like water running a gas engine. I could very well be wrong though. Methanol engines are beasts all their own.

J.A.W.
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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There have been a few posts on various threads in this forum..
discussing high % glycerine/glycol fluids.. for potential use as extreme coolants/lube/fuel additives..

So IMO, its quite likely, any keen-eyed F1-team/affliate tech.. would've duly perused them..
for potential to apply.. some useful power-adding via open rule loopholes..
( & both as ADI, &/or as added/extra hydrocarbons - for power burning)..

Certainly, Ferrari has 'history' in utilizing miscible fuel compounds ( inc' water in gasoline) for advantage..
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NL_Fer
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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So extra fluid could be used:

A. As a fuel
B. As an anti-detonation agent, to increase the knock limit.

How about the possibility to use a carrier to help extract more heat from the combustion. The hot vapour increasing exhaust flow for the turbine, harvested with the MGU-H. This would help the amount of available ERS boost.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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that sounds good

afaik
after EVO there's energy that won't work a further expander
(blowdown is sonic or supersonic and so loses thermodynamically ie gets an element of thermodynamic irreversibity ?)
but that part of the energy can boil water and then be put to work

EDITED
most combined diesel/steam engines tried using exhaust heat to raise steam
but the nearest I can find (to water in CI combustion) is ...
US patent 2791881 Charles T Denkler 1954 'Combined Diesel and Steam engine'
diesel exhaust fed to dedicated cylinder into which water is injected for steam power
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Maritimer
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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I wonder what long term effects of that could be. Surely having an excess of water in a CI chamber would generate acid since you're subjecting that water to immense pressure within a mixture of gases. Nitric or carbonic acid perhaps? Probably not in any quantity that would hurt anything I'd imagine.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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the 'WI' mystery ......

'W'I was methanol/water for piston aircraft engines (and seemingly for turboprops) .... ....
WI was water only for turbojet aircraft engines (mostly eg not Harriers) ..... because ......

methanol contributes cooling (benefiting supercharger compression) as the BP of the mix was quite low
its fuel effects replace some of the Avgas fuelling
and the mix is antifreeze

turbojets used water only
the BP was no problem as it was sprayed into the (hot) turbine region to great cooling effect
the cooling effect allowed increased fuelling (there's lots of spare air) without overheating the turbine
this gave more thrust - briefly ie for takeoff only (the water tank was then automatically emptied to avoid freezing)

WI is obsolete - modern turbofans don't need it and it would be too disruptive to the fan's design around the normal job
though GE suggested it in 2013 for a developed 777 this has been shelved


returning to the subject of WI etc into the F1 exhaust ......
a 1968 paper by Davidson and Sadowski in the Journal of Hydronautics said .....
injecting into the exhaust of a turbojet reduced performance (and was not good with a mixed hot/cold flow) ...but ...
injecting into the fan flow (cold) of a turbofan was highly beneficial in the case of a directly jet-driven high speed ship ....
because the mixed flow had greatly increased mass and lower velocity
the thrust would increase by 380% at 25 kts or by 90% at 100 kts
without the conventional gearboxes, shafts, and propellors etc
and the water would be sea water not distilled water

Just_a_fan
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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The Harrier uses water injection purely as a way of limiting turbine blade temperature when using maximum power i.e. hovering when loaded or in hot ambient conditions. The plane carries about 50imp gallons of distilled water - good for 90 seconds of water injection. After that, the engine reverts to "dry" settings to limit turbine temperature (and this also then limits power and hence thrust available).
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saviour stivala
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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wuzak wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:19 am
Maritimer wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:10 am
Water soluble oils don't burn very nicely, especially once they're in solution. The vapors can be flammable but I doubt you would get much useful energy from them in an engine. Plus theres the matter of getting your coolant into the cylinder without there being potential for the engine to pump gases into the water jacket. Probably not a path worth going down.
I don't think you'd use coolant for combustion, as such, but to provide an anti-detonation effect.

But since it could not enter the compressor inlet legally, and any leakage would probably cause problems with lubrication, I think it is highly unlikely.
And illegal.

Edax
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:00 pm
WI is obsolete - modern turbofans don't need it and it would be too disruptive to the fan's design around the normal job
though GE suggested it in 2013 for a developed 777 this has been shelved
I remember looking into that. That was for the 777 9x which is still under development. The story also did not come from GE itself but from the CEO from Emirates who suggested that it was one of the solutions to deal with the extremely high temperatures in the summer months. GE immediately pushed back against the suggestion.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-390795/

To me it sounds more like a case of boardroom engineering than a serious proposal.

McMrocks
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Burn Hydrogen that is stored in the fluid. There are fluids that set the hydrogen free under heat. Carbazol for example.

Or u store it in metal. Even that works. I.e. the cranck case.


I just dont see how u would have sufficient hydrogen to get that performance boost all race long.

If there is actually hydrogen beeing released during engine warm up and u cant use it, just blow it out of the cranck case as water vapor in a big white cloud.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:27 pm
With a sharp limit on oil consumption, the tech-heads must be looking for other ways of adding some to the combustion. How about coolant? What is possible to add in the fluid and what could be gained?

Even if a combustable additive is not possible, how about preventing knock or even just cool the charge temperature. Any ideas if such is possible or why not.
Steam injection?

It could add power but you need a whole lotta water to last a race. The fuel injectors are 300 to 500bar.. But no need for the water injector to be that high since it will be injectected after peak cylinder pressure. So you would set up a water pump that can do say 200 bar than a heater to heat the water to about 370 Degrees Celcius. Upon Injection into the cylinder whose pressure will have fallen to less than 200 bar, the water will expand into steam and push the piston down.

You are basically putting a steam engine into the PU.

The problem is do you have enough water for this? And where do you get the heat to go to 370*C? The brakes? Electric heater? The exhaust pipe?
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DiogoBrand
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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Why not put some vodka in the driver's drink and burn that as well? They could also burn brake fluid, transmission fluid and so on. Every fluid in the car now has become a potential fuel for the engine.

roon
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Re: Burning coolant fluid

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As long as you can convince the FIA it is "incidental leakage." Only the compressor fed by the roll-hoop inlet, and the fuel injectors, are supposed to convey fluids to the combustion chamber.