Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:51 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:49 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:06 pm

Ah, right, that makes more sense. :oops:
Yep. I don't think Mercedes have started down a different route . . . yet.

Suzuka will be a big test for Merc and Ferrari. It is packed with the types of corners that Ferrari have struggled with at circuits like Barcelona, Paul Ricard, Silverstone, and the Hungaroring. If Ferrari suddenly goes well there, Merc may have to think about a much more efficient car for 2020.

If Merc reign supreme at Suzuka, then knowing how the W10 performed at a vast majority of the less power-sensitive tracks, I wouldn't expect a huge departure, rather an evolution of the W10 with perhaps less "dirty" downforce.

One of the things I've often wondered this season, is if it could be something as simple as gear ratios. Gear ratios are locked in for the entire season if memory serves. If Merc had runner slightly longer gears maybe they wouldn't have the strait line speed deficit to Ferrari.
What makes the Ferrari particularly strong is the acceleration, not really the top speed. Yes, they often stand out regarding top speed, but some midfield teams regularly do that as well.

Longer gear ratios would make the Mercedes accelerate slower, wouldn't it?

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dans79
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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LM10 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:39 pm
Longer gear ratios would make the Mercedes accelerate slower, wouldn't it?
It depends what gears are long (you don't necessarily need to make them all long), and what the engines power curve looks like.
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:51 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:49 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:06 pm

Ah, right, that makes more sense. :oops:
Yep. I don't think Mercedes have started down a different route . . . yet.

Suzuka will be a big test for Merc and Ferrari. It is packed with the types of corners that Ferrari have struggled with at circuits like Barcelona, Paul Ricard, Silverstone, and the Hungaroring. If Ferrari suddenly goes well there, Merc may have to think about a much more efficient car for 2020.

If Merc reign supreme at Suzuka, then knowing how the W10 performed at a vast majority of the less power-sensitive tracks, I wouldn't expect a huge departure, rather an evolution of the W10 with perhaps less "dirty" downforce.

One of the things I've often wondered this season, is if it could be something as simple as gear ratios. Gear ratios are locked in for the entire season if memory serves. If Merc had runner slightly longer gears maybe they wouldn't have the strait line speed deficit to Ferrari.
I'm not sure. Maybe someone with more knowledge than me on that topic could chime in. Someone once said that, due to the power curve of the hybrid turbo engines being so wide and flat (compared to the previous naturally aspirated engines), the gearing is not as critical to performance, and accordingly, as a cost-cutting measure, they decided on fixed ratios for the season back when the new PU regs were introduced.

In Sochi, the Mercs weren't far off the Ferraris in terms of overall top speed. The big difference has been the Ferrari's rate of acceleration, which rockets them to that top speed very quickly, allowing them to achieve it quicker and maintain it for longer.

The Ferraris rate of acceleration on the straights is downright extraordinary. Any talk of a new, clever way to burn oil via unregulated ICE components seems like a big red herring. It wouldn't make sense to deploy a tactic like that only on straights, either. It has to be a clever deployment trick. It's interesting that Ferrari have had CE-related failures this year.

Apparently, it was an electrical insulation failure of the ERS system that led to Vettel's retirement in Sochi.

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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LM10 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:39 pm

What makes the Ferrari particularly strong is the acceleration, not really the top speed. Yes, they often stand out regarding top speed, but some midfield teams regularly do that as well.
High top speeds in the pack / back markers is usually just because they don't have the same downforce levels (and hence drag) as the big guys. That's also why they're slower in the corners - which is where lap time is really made.
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Probably wrong, but I wonder if the Ferrari electric mapping is such that a lot is dumped at the beginning of each gear and the resulting heat and friction is simultaneously being harvested in small amounts too, thereby leaving them with more juice in the bank throughout the lap. So perhaps it's a novel parallel deploy + harvest functionality they've developed.

I'm not aware of the regs in detail or even if this is something that is being done by all so yeah lol speaking out of my ignorance perhaps.

It would be interesting to see what the new concept would look like. Afterall, this year's car has had unbelievable race pace.
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izzy
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Sierra117 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:14 pm
Probably wrong, but I wonder if the Ferrari electric mapping is such that a lot is dumped at the beginning of each gear and the resulting heat and friction is simultaneously being harvested in small amounts too, thereby leaving them with more juice in the bank throughout the lap. So perhaps it's a novel parallel deploy + harvest functionality they've developed.

I'm not aware of the regs in detail or even if this is something that is being done by all so yeah lol speaking out of my ignorance perhaps.

It would be interesting to see what the new concept would look like. Afterall, this year's car has had unbelievable race pace.
i think the regs have this covered, with the limit of 120kW on deployment. They all use it as soon as they have traction, for various durations, for the area under the curve down the straight, depending on their mode at the time

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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what's in the new suspension, anyone seen any hints? It must be fairly cunning, to be introduced as a package, and they have form for FRICS and then the passive hydraulic accumulator. They already do the 5mm droop with steering presumably.

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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izzy wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:59 pm
Sierra117 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:14 pm
Probably wrong, but I wonder if the Ferrari electric mapping is such that a lot is dumped at the beginning of each gear and the resulting heat and friction is simultaneously being harvested in small amounts too, thereby leaving them with more juice in the bank throughout the lap. So perhaps it's a novel parallel deploy + harvest functionality they've developed.

I'm not aware of the regs in detail or even if this is something that is being done by all so yeah lol speaking out of my ignorance perhaps.

It would be interesting to see what the new concept would look like. Afterall, this year's car has had unbelievable race pace.
i think the regs have this covered, with the limit of 120kW on deployment. They all use it as soon as they have traction, for various durations, for the area under the curve down the straight, depending on their mode at the time
What I mean is, perhaps they've found a golden balance where they don't cross the 120kW ceiling (or perhaps they do and can hide it somehow, many ideas in the PU threads) and they've allocated a tiny portion to constantly harvest and be used in short quick cycles such that they have it being used virtually all the time. If you hear the Ferrari engines they sound much much different and there's a quintessential electric whine to it much more prominent than a turbo whine. I don't have a power unit background but I do in software and from there I can see it being done.
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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Sierra117 wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:29 pm
What I mean is, perhaps they've found a golden balance where they don't cross the 120kW ceiling (or perhaps they do and can hide it somehow, many ideas in the PU threads) and they've allocated a tiny portion to constantly harvest and be used in short quick cycles such that they have it being used virtually all the time. If you hear the Ferrari engines they sound much much different and there's a quintessential electric whine to it much more prominent than a turbo whine. I don't have a power unit background but I do in software and from there I can see it being done.
i don't know enough to guess whether they can deploy and harvest in rapid cycles like you suggest. there are so many limits and restrictions aren't there. 110 pages! they measure the ES output in dc, and that energy has to come from the fuel ultimately anyway. The fuel is probably part of it, with Shell having found a way to improve the energy density? It's all limited to 100kg/hr that's the fundamental limit. it's a mass flow limit for all the energy in the car. They're not allowed to use plasma ignition or more than 5 sparks. Whatever Ferrari have done it must be seriously clever and Mercedes must be working ultra hard trying to work out what

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:20 am
According to AMuS, Mercedes is considering a concept change for next year.

#AMuS

"The Mercedes concept for this year was downforce at all costs but Mercedes admits to consider a concept change for 2020.

But Toto Wolff also warns and says the important thing first is to find out what Ferrari is doing with their engine."


Explains why Merc's development dropped off almost entirely post-Germany.
What I wonder is, when did they decide to change their concept? I mean, their "downforce at all costs" concept was which made them smash the opponents in almost 70% of the season. Maybe it was just a couple of races ago when they saw that Ferrari has had upper hand with, let's say, enough downforce level, but still quite a much of efficiency?

Next season Pirelli will make the tyres heat up even lesser. My feeling says that downforce at all costs might be even more important than in this season.

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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LM10 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:31 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:20 am
According to AMuS, Mercedes is considering a concept change for next year.

#AMuS

"The Mercedes concept for this year was downforce at all costs but Mercedes admits to consider a concept change for 2020.

But Toto Wolff also warns and says the important thing first is to find out what Ferrari is doing with their engine."


Explains why Merc's development dropped off almost entirely post-Germany.
What I wonder is, when did they decide to change their concept? I mean, their "downforce at all costs" concept was which made them smash the opponents in almost 70% of the season. Maybe it was just a couple of races ago when they saw that Ferrari has had upper hand with, let's say, enough downforce level, but still quite a much of efficiency?

Next season Pirelli will make the tyres heat up even lesser. My feeling says that downforce at all costs might be even more important than in this season.
I don't think they've decided yet. The more information that comes out, the more it seems like Mercedes are just going to refine the W10 and try to make it more efficient. A lot will depend on what steps they can make on the PU-side of the equation.

I think Suzuka is going to be the first real test to see where things have evolved since the summer break. Ferrari has definitely improved, that much is certain. But Suzuka will tell us by how much.

Wolff just admitted that they haven't brought any significant updates since Germany because they switched resources over to 2020.

Wolff said the lack of recent updates was a strategic decision. "You've got to manage your resource[s] in the right way, also looking into next year," he said. "That is something which we consider very carefully. There will be a little thing in Suzuka, that we are just interested to explore. But not the big steps that we had when we pushed very hard until the summer."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14635 ... -as-can-be

As far as next year's tires, aren't they increasing/widening the operating window, making them easier to switch on?

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:19 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:31 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:20 am
According to AMuS, Mercedes is considering a concept change for next year.

#AMuS

"The Mercedes concept for this year was downforce at all costs but Mercedes admits to consider a concept change for 2020.

But Toto Wolff also warns and says the important thing first is to find out what Ferrari is doing with their engine."


Explains why Merc's development dropped off almost entirely post-Germany.
What I wonder is, when did they decide to change their concept? I mean, their "downforce at all costs" concept was which made them smash the opponents in almost 70% of the season. Maybe it was just a couple of races ago when they saw that Ferrari has had upper hand with, let's say, enough downforce level, but still quite a much of efficiency?

Next season Pirelli will make the tyres heat up even lesser. My feeling says that downforce at all costs might be even more important than in this season.
I don't think they've decided yet. The more information that comes out, the more it seems like Mercedes are just going to refine the W10 and try to make it more efficient. A lot will depend on what steps they can make on the PU-side of the equation.

I think Suzuka is going to be the first real test to see where things have evolved since the summer break. Ferrari has definitely improved, that much is certain. But Suzuka will tell us by how much.

Wolff just admitted that they haven't brought any significant updates since Germany because they switched resources over to 2020.

Wolff said the lack of recent updates was a strategic decision. "You've got to manage your resource[s] in the right way, also looking into next year," he said. "That is something which we consider very carefully. There will be a little thing in Suzuka, that we are just interested to explore. But not the big steps that we had when we pushed very hard until the summer."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14635 ... -as-can-be

As far as next year's tires, aren't they increasing/widening the operating window, making them easier to switch on?
You're right with the Suzuka part. It'll be interesting to see by how much Ferrari improved. I think Mercedes still is the overall class of the field.

Regarding tires, you can read everything in this article: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14500 ... g-20-tyres

The tires are going to have a wider range, they're gonna overheat even less (request from drivers) and the newest wish is them to have low-deg.

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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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LM10 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:22 pm


You're right with the Suzuka part. It'll be interesting to see by how much Ferrari improved. I think Mercedes still is the overall class of the field.

Regarding tires, you can read everything in this article: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14500 ... g-20-tyres

The tires are going to have a wider range, they're gonna overheat even less (request from drivers) and the newest wish is them to have low-deg.
just call Bridgestone! :lol: :lol:

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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LM10 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:22 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:19 pm
LM10 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:31 pm


What I wonder is, when did they decide to change their concept? I mean, their "downforce at all costs" concept was which made them smash the opponents in almost 70% of the season. Maybe it was just a couple of races ago when they saw that Ferrari has had upper hand with, let's say, enough downforce level, but still quite a much of efficiency?

Next season Pirelli will make the tyres heat up even lesser. My feeling says that downforce at all costs might be even more important than in this season.
I don't think they've decided yet. The more information that comes out, the more it seems like Mercedes are just going to refine the W10 and try to make it more efficient. A lot will depend on what steps they can make on the PU-side of the equation.

I think Suzuka is going to be the first real test to see where things have evolved since the summer break. Ferrari has definitely improved, that much is certain. But Suzuka will tell us by how much.

Wolff just admitted that they haven't brought any significant updates since Germany because they switched resources over to 2020.

Wolff said the lack of recent updates was a strategic decision. "You've got to manage your resource[s] in the right way, also looking into next year," he said. "That is something which we consider very carefully. There will be a little thing in Suzuka, that we are just interested to explore. But not the big steps that we had when we pushed very hard until the summer."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14635 ... -as-can-be

As far as next year's tires, aren't they increasing/widening the operating window, making them easier to switch on?
You're right with the Suzuka part. It'll be interesting to see by how much Ferrari improved. I think Mercedes still is the overall class of the field.

Regarding tires, you can read everything in this article: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14500 ... g-20-tyres

The tires are going to have a wider range, they're gonna overheat even less (request from drivers) and the newest wish is them to have low-deg.
Thank you for the link. Suzuka has been one of Merc's strongest circuits in the hybrid era, with Merc winning every race there since 2014. If Ferrari performs well and wins there, they will have achieved an extraordinary turnaround with their car.

Even if that doesn't turn out to be the case, I give Ferrari a tremendous amount of credit for never giving up this year. Ferrari teams in the past would have crumbled under the pressure, but I think the new leadership is doing a better job. Now they just have to sort out the brewing war between their drivers.

LM10
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Re: Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

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zibby43 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:28 pm
LM10 wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:22 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:19 pm


I don't think they've decided yet. The more information that comes out, the more it seems like Mercedes are just going to refine the W10 and try to make it more efficient. A lot will depend on what steps they can make on the PU-side of the equation.

I think Suzuka is going to be the first real test to see where things have evolved since the summer break. Ferrari has definitely improved, that much is certain. But Suzuka will tell us by how much.

Wolff just admitted that they haven't brought any significant updates since Germany because they switched resources over to 2020.

Wolff said the lack of recent updates was a strategic decision. "You've got to manage your resource[s] in the right way, also looking into next year," he said. "That is something which we consider very carefully. There will be a little thing in Suzuka, that we are just interested to explore. But not the big steps that we had when we pushed very hard until the summer."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14635 ... -as-can-be

As far as next year's tires, aren't they increasing/widening the operating window, making them easier to switch on?
You're right with the Suzuka part. It'll be interesting to see by how much Ferrari improved. I think Mercedes still is the overall class of the field.

Regarding tires, you can read everything in this article: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14500 ... g-20-tyres

The tires are going to have a wider range, they're gonna overheat even less (request from drivers) and the newest wish is them to have low-deg.
Thank you for the link. Suzuka has been one of Merc's strongest circuits in the hybrid era, with Merc winning every race there since 2014. If Ferrari performs well and wins there, they will have achieved an extraordinary turnaround with their car.

Even if that doesn't turn out to be the case, I give Ferrari a tremendous amount of credit for never giving up this year. Ferrari teams in the past would have crumbled under the pressure, but I think the new leadership is doing a better job. Now they just have to sort out the brewing war between their drivers.
You're welcome. I agree with the rest of your post.