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Are big front wheels the real problem with F1?

Back in the day, a Wolf WR1 had the same size front wheel and tire as a Formula Atlantic.

Discuss.

smellybeard wrote: ↑

15 Mar 2019, 22:58

Are big front wheels the real problem with F1?

Back in the day, a Wolf WR1 had the same size front wheel and tire as a Formula Atlantic.

Discuss.

why would it be a problem? wider front tires = more mechanical grip = less dependent of aero = more possibilities of following closely. Or is your theory that the braking zones are so short that you can't do anything anymore?

Wouldn't mind seeing shorter tires. Same or similar width. Would work well with current front wing arrangement--loft the wing wake over the tire. Thicker tread to make up for loss of circumference (tire wear). Heat will be more of an issue, I'd assume (reduces mass to surface area ratio).

The car OP reference's, if anyone's unaware:

The big front tires generate huge aerodynamic problems downstream and a lot of what goes on is dealing with the wake. Why not tackle the cause and cut the grip while we're at it?
Other bonuses would be a reduction in front brake sizes, reduced mass of potentially lethal projectiles and perhaps simplified front wings.

The size of the cars is getting out of control and a lot of the extension in wheelbase is to separate the turbulence creating objects from the downforce creation and provide space for conditioning.

If we go back further - to the Lotus 72, we find even smaller fronts.

Open tyres are the problem. They disturb the airflow for the following cars, making the generation of downforce more difficult, and the wider the tyres the more of a problem that becomes. So yes, slimmer tyres would help, but partially covered tyres, specially behind the tyres, would be the real solution.

hecan wrote: ↑

19 Mar 2019, 20:47

So yes, slimmer tyres would help, but partially covered tyres, specially behind the tyres, would be the real solution.

"partially covered tyres" as in wheel fairings or 'mudguards'?
Give it two seats and a roof then, because it's not an F1.

Jolle wrote: ↑

16 Mar 2019, 00:02

why would it be a problem? wider front tires = more mechanical grip

It's not really "more" is it? Just more on the front?

You could have narrower front tyres and shorter wheelbase with less weight distribution on the front instead. There is no reason for a mid-engine rear drive car to have so much weight on front axles --- that is only because of the rules and wide front tyres.

I am in favour of a return to pre-2017 front tyre width: 25.0"x10.0"-13" (or 245/660-R13 for Pirelli metric front tyres, pre-2017 size, which is still used in F2).

This front tyre size was basically maintained from Goodyear era until 2016, after which the front and rear tyres were scaled equally for 2017. Previously, the reduction in rear tyre width of 1993 was NOT accompanied by an equal scaling down of the front tyres.

smellybeard wrote: ↑

21 Mar 2019, 00:18

hecan wrote: ↑

19 Mar 2019, 20:47

So yes, slimmer tyres would help, but partially covered tyres, specially behind the tyres, would be the real solution.

"partially covered tyres" as in wheel fairings or 'mudguards'?
Give it two seats and a roof then, because it's not an F1.

Did you know F1 actually had covered wheels in the 50's?



Not to mention the wheel fairings when full on covers were banned for decades already:


We can't be purists about a sport where if it was not banned, teams would literally tumble over eachother to create the best wheel cover.

We can't be purists about a sport where if it was not banned, teams would literally thumble over eachother to create the best wheel cover.

Dangerous line to take. If it weren't banned, the teams would have ABS and full-on traction control (as opposed to clever maps to mimic the effect where possible). Would anyone want to see ABS and full-on TC back?

I know there's a difference between items to remove driver skill and those used to improve air flow, but if we take the view that we shouldn't be a purist about something the teams would have if allowed, we'll end up with LMP1-style cars equipped with fan-driven sealed ground effect aero, ABS, TC, dynamic slip control (steering automatically picking up any sliding, brakes being used to keep the car stable etc.). They'd be amazing machines but they sure as heck wouldn't be F1.

Having said all of that, I'd go for some sort of standardised wheel fairing to help wake control and thus aid closer racing.

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑

21 Mar 2019, 14:55

We can't be purists about a sport where if it was not banned, teams would literally thumble over eachother to create the best wheel cover.

Dangerous line to take. If it weren't banned, the teams would have ABS and full-on traction control (as opposed to clever maps to mimic the effect where possible). Would anyone want to see ABS and full-on TC back?

I know there's a difference between items to remove driver skill and those used to improve air flow, but if we take the view that we shouldn't be a purist about something the teams would have if allowed, we'll end up with LMP1-style cars equipped with fan-driven sealed ground effect aero, ABS, TC, dynamic slip control (steering automatically picking up any sliding, brakes being used to keep the car stable etc.). They'd be amazing machines but they sure as heck wouldn't be F1.

Having said all of that, I'd go for some sort of standardised wheel fairing to help wake control and thus aid closer racing.

That's an interesting thought. I might have been a bit "short around the corner" with my comment, but I always have felt the need for open wheels as unnecessary. If you want to keep a distinct difference with lmp1, I'd say just follow the example set out by Red Bull years ago, by only covering the wheel and not integrating suspension in overarching bodywork. That way you combine the best of both worlds: reducing turbulent wheel wake which will improve close racing, while you still have the appropiate aesthetics.

smellybeard wrote: ↑

21 Mar 2019, 00:18

hecan wrote: ↑

19 Mar 2019, 20:47

So yes, slimmer tyres would help, but partially covered tyres, specially behind the tyres, would be the real solution.

"partially covered tyres" as in wheel fairings or 'mudguards'?
Give it two seats and a roof then, because it's not an F1.

The thing about physics is that it doesnt care about what we might want xD

Just_a_fan wrote: ↑

21 Mar 2019, 14:55

We can't be purists about a sport where if it was not banned, teams would literally thumble over eachother to create the best wheel cover.

Dangerous line to take. If it weren't banned, the teams would have ABS and full-on traction control (as opposed to clever maps to mimic the effect where possible). Would anyone want to see ABS and full-on TC back?

I know there's a difference between items to remove driver skill and those used to improve air flow, but if we take the view that we shouldn't be a purist about something the teams would have if allowed, we'll end up with LMP1-style cars equipped with fan-driven sealed ground effect aero, ABS, TC, dynamic slip control (steering automatically picking up any sliding, brakes being used to keep the car stable etc.). They'd be amazing machines but they sure as heck wouldn't be F1.

Having said all of that, I'd go for some sort of standardised wheel fairing to help wake control and thus aid closer racing.

Some would argue that F1 should be the pinnacle and most technologically advanced series. If that is the want then all those systems mentioned would be included. I don’t agree. I want to see driver skill, does that mean we should go high HP and no downforce.... I don’t think that is the answer either.

JordanMugen wrote: ↑

21 Mar 2019, 03:52

You could have narrower front tyres and shorter wheelbase with less weight distribution on the front instead. There is no reason for a mid-engine rear drive car to have so much weight on front axles --- that is only because of the rules and wide front tyres.

I don't know about the problem, but I would say the wide front tyres are certainly a problem.

When the cars were made narrow track in 1998 the rationale was that the cars would be slowed down because the front wheel wake would go under the floor. Over time the bargeboards got more evolved to push the front wing wake outwards which made the car wake wider, and downforce - especially from the floor increased. IIRC around 2002 the downforce from the floor was something like 48% whereas now it's ~65%, plus total downforce now is so much higher. So the issue there is twofold - wide wake to stop the tyre wake going under the floor, and really high downforce levels.

What I don't understand, as others have pointed out, is why in 2017 the front tyres were scaled with the rear tyres - it was an opportunity to go to pre-98 tyre sizes. Likewise why the body was increased to 1600mm, when leaving it at 1400mm would have meant the floor was less susceptible to ingress of the front tyre wake.

I personally think the whole car needs to come down in size, we have got to a stage with these much smaller engines when we have [imo] a ridiculous amount of flat floor space and overall volume. Making them 3/4 of the size they are now may also help with narrower tracks.