2022 Aero Thread

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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They have never really "sealed" the floor in the way skirts did, though. It's a misnomer really.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Maplesoup
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Sealing the floor just refers to either using vortices to clean up or redirect the dirty air off the front tires. This protects the diffuser from dirty air which effects it's performance quite a bit.

Smokes
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Can we get 50000N of -CL from a ground effect floor with low drag and a decent center of pressure without skirts and flow conditioners?

I have just re-read up on the y250 vortex it there to clean up the dirty air and push the front wheel wake away from the diffuser. This correct?

I am guessing that the y250 vortex wouldn't be needed with ground effects? From the race car engineering article.


re: Skirts

With modern sensors you could run the skirts them actively with hydraulic ram and a moog valves and if you were to do that you could run an active suspension.
From and engineering standpoint this would be more cost effective to get -CL and handling and reduce weight.
Rather than the current frics suspension and complex CFD designed parts and flexing wings.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Smokes wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:12 pm
if we are going to ground effect will we also be using active suspension and sealing skirts as this would make the car safer for the drivers to drive on the limit by control the ride heights and floor sealing.

Race cars that don't pitch, roll or squat are boring to watch though. :|

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:06 pm
Smokes wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:25 pm
If we can't have skirts that are safe then I guess the aero development cost will be high as every one will be spending a lot of time sealing the floor with vortexes.
Not with a $175m budget cap.
It is going to be a total joke. Just look at the Panama papers and the constant tax dodging by large corporations which even the largest coumtries fail to combat and somehow we think the FIA has found the solution to police this? If they manage, please tell Western countries governments so we the people can finally start paying less tax and the rich and corporates their fair percentage.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Active suspension has already been ruled out, was an article eith I believe Tombiazis about it here short time ago. Point was it gives the leading car and advantage of always having perfect conditions making following harder as opposed to what they are trying to do.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

Maplesoup
Maplesoup
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:09 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:06 pm
Smokes wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:25 pm
If we can't have skirts that are safe then I guess the aero development cost will be high as every one will be spending a lot of time sealing the floor with vortexes.
Not with a $175m budget cap.
It is going to be a total joke. Just look at the Panama papers and the constant tax dodging by large corporations which even the largest coumtries fail to combat and somehow we think the FIA has found the solution to police this? If they manage, please tell Western countries governments so we the people can finally start paying less tax and the rich and corporates their fair percentage.
Yea tax rules with countries that have overseas territories is a little bit more complex than a spending cap for a team.

Also it's not really fair to claim the rich don't pay their fair share. In one year a single high earner will probably pay more tax than an average earner will pay in their lifetime. But that's not really relevant and please keep politics out of the forum

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Maplesoup wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:36 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:09 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:06 pm


Not with a $175m budget cap.
It is going to be a total joke. Just look at the Panama papers and the constant tax dodging by large corporations which even the largest coumtries fail to combat and somehow we think the FIA has found the solution to police this? If they manage, please tell Western countries governments so we the people can finally start paying less tax and the rich and corporates their fair percentage.
Yea tax rules with countries that have overseas territories is a little bit more complex than a spending cap for a team.

Also it's not really fair to claim the rich don't pay their fair share. In one year a single high earner will probably pay more tax than an average earner will pay in their lifetime. But that's not really relevant and please keep politics out of the forum
Irrelevant, tax is based on percentages for a good reason. Basically you are saying it would be fair if Jeff Bezos paid only 100k in taxes because it is more than his warehouse slaves. But yeah, lets keep further politics out of it.

Regarding your comments about it being more difficult for countries, lets just look at some teams:
-Mercedes: German HQ, British base and engine
-Red Bull: Austrian HQ, British base, Japanese engine with a British dependance base
-Renault: French HQ, British base, French
-Haas: American HQ, American main base, Italian and British dependance base, Italian design team
-Alfa: Italian HQ, Swiss main base, Italian engine

Good luck sortimg out all, also comsidering there are suppliers involved in different currency zones so how are you going to prevent one team gettimg lucky with currency appreciation vs the currency of the others especially with the amounts of money we are talking about. If the limit is set in dollar, but for example the Euro stays equal to the dollar but the pound drops 1% it gives Ferrari and Renault engine department in essence a 1% higher budget. But wait, there is also the cost of living differences for the normal personnel and the personnel of local suppliers, so good luck to Alfa and kudos to Ferrari and Renault engine (only a small percentage of the employees are paid top of the line where there is no link anymore with the local costs of living). Then there are the various accounting standards and how to contribute costs and soon you will realise this is about as policable as a ban on laughing when alone.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Simple. FIA gives each team $175m dollars. That's all they get for the car. If sponsors want to pay driver salaries, hospitality costs etc, then so be it.

Every penny spent on the car to be accounted for. FIA carries out random audit inspections, any anomalies found are published and fined an amount equal to 5 times the "mistake" the following year. You get clever this year by $1m and get caught? You lose out next year by $5m.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:43 am
Simple. FIA gives each team $175m dollars. That's all they get for the car. If sponsors want to pay driver salaries, hospitality costs etc, then so be it.

Every penny spent on the car to be accounted for. FIA carries out random audit inspections, any anomalies found are published and fined an amount equal to 5 times the "mistake" the following year. You get clever this year by $1m and get caught? You lose out next year by $5m.
And the problems mentioned with exchange rates and local costs of living for both the teams and their vast network of suppliers and the suppliers of their suppliers?

And how do you value for example Daimler R&D making its way into the team (and back)? Workimg with a university research into aero? Etc etc
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

Smokes
Smokes
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:12 pm
Active suspension has already been ruled out, was an article eith I believe Tombiazis about it here short time ago. Point was it gives the leading car and advantage of always having perfect conditions making following harder as opposed to what they are trying to do.
Hmm maybe we should have active aero, active suspension, and ground effects with skirts, and a 550kg min weight limit.
my guess would be it would be a lot cheaper doing this and would keep the 22 cars within a close performance band on 0.5 second.
FIA could then control corner speed by make harder tyres compounds to reduce the coefficient of friction of the tyre.

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Smokes wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:41 pm
Pyrone89 wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:12 pm
Active suspension has already been ruled out, was an article eith I believe Tombiazis about it here short time ago. Point was it gives the leading car and advantage of always having perfect conditions making following harder as opposed to what they are trying to do.
Hmm maybe we should have active aero, active suspension, and ground effects with skirts, and a 550kg min weight limit.
my guess would be it would be a lot cheaper doing this and would keep the 22 cars within a close performance band on 0.5 second.
FIA could then control corner speed by make harder tyres compounds to reduce the coefficient of friction of the tyre.
Apparently the first two favor the leading car from what I read, which is the opposite of what we want. The skirts present a danger issue.
Best WDC-drivers in F1 history:
Schumacher, Senna, Fangio

Driving a dominant car in the most dominant team ever, helped by favorable rule changes, against subtop teammates does not make you the GOAT (but still superb). It just helps you inflate/skew your stats.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:46 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:43 am
Simple. FIA gives each team $175m dollars. That's all they get for the car. If sponsors want to pay driver salaries, hospitality costs etc, then so be it.

Every penny spent on the car to be accounted for. FIA carries out random audit inspections, any anomalies found are published and fined an amount equal to 5 times the "mistake" the following year. You get clever this year by $1m and get caught? You lose out next year by $5m.
And the problems mentioned with exchange rates and local costs of living for both the teams and their vast network of suppliers and the suppliers of their suppliers?

And how do you value for example Daimler R&D making its way into the team (and back)? Workimg with a university research into aero? Etc etc
It's still going to be better for the majority of teams than the current situation. I'd rather a couple of million down on the competition than 150 million down...
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Blackout
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:47 pm
The F1 car seems entirely consistent with conventions to me -- the inlet with vortex generators, and the "second kick" in the diffuser profile that is popular in modern time attack / hypercar design. :)
This is what I wrote a couple of months ago viewtopic.php?p=824353#p824353 so I know this F1 concept has a similar underbody phylosophy to those champcars. But I just underlined the differences that I noticed :wink: that recess just behind the front big VG is one of them.
Got pictures of that superformula underbody ?

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Blackout wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:48 pm
This is what I wrote a couple of months ago viewtopic.php?p=824353#p824353 so I know this F1 concept has a similar underbody phylosophy to those champcars. But I just underlined the differences that I noticed :wink: that recess just behind the front big VG is one of them.
My bad, please accept my apologies. :oops: :oops: It was an excellent post you made too! =D> =D>
Got pictures of that superformula underbody ?
Sadly, no. :(