2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Peter Ian Staker
Peter Ian Staker
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ten-infos/
What technology is still to come in Bahrain?

Despite budget caps, many teams want to show up in Bahrain with an upgrade. Mercedes and Red Bull even with a significant step. Ferrari says it is content with optimisation work on the F1-75. One has to assume that all teams show modifications on the underbody to solve the problem with bouncing on the straights constructively. Otherwise, the compromise on the setup would involve too much sacrifice.

No one revealed all the cards in Barcelona. "We won't see the delicate things that could be in a grey area until Bahrain," one engineer predicts to us. From FIA circles we learn that it could be over with the cosy course of the teams already in Bahrain. Apparently, we can already see from the CAD data for the legality check of the upgrades that some are sailing close to the wind and are coming up with solutions that do not quite comply with the spirit of the regulations.

bosyber
bosyber
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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OO7 wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:01 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:48 pm
OO7 wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:51 am

New rules have made DRS more powerful which will aid overtaking – Bottas: https://www.racefans.net/2022/02/27/new ... ng-bottas/
yes, I saw that, thanks. It is wider but I'm just thinking there are some other factors as well like the end plates and the angle of attack it starts with, and the air pressure it's working in at the time. And I'm not sure Valtteri is talking about his actual experience. But the big difference is getting within that 1s to start with isn't it so it should be good either way. And if it's too good they can just change the zone or trigger point or just turn it off.
I agreed. Those are good points izzy.
From this racefans article, the quotes from drivers indicate that more powerful DRS really is a relative effect where both the wider flap, and the fact that the slipstream (in the corners 'dirty air') is reduced which lead to a car being easier to follow onto a straight, but having more trouble following there if not for DRS enabling them to pass. I guess we'll see; it does make sense, but it would be a pity to have f1 now feel like it needs DRS for a different reason than before. Personally I think this is as it should be, just that now overtaking should change to be more than ever about following closely and thus forcing the leading car into a mistake and/or good positioning during a sequence of corners.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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bosyber wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:18 pm
OO7 wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:01 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:48 pm

yes, I saw that, thanks. It is wider but I'm just thinking there are some other factors as well like the end plates and the angle of attack it starts with, and the air pressure it's working in at the time. And I'm not sure Valtteri is talking about his actual experience. But the big difference is getting within that 1s to start with isn't it so it should be good either way. And if it's too good they can just change the zone or trigger point or just turn it off.
I agreed. Those are good points izzy.
From this racefans article, the quotes from drivers indicate that more powerful DRS really is a relative effect where both the wider flap, and the fact that the slipstream (in the corners 'dirty air') is reduced which lead to a car being easier to follow onto a straight, but having more trouble following there if not for DRS enabling them to pass. I guess we'll see; it does make sense, but it would be a pity to have f1 now feel like it needs DRS for a different reason than before. Personally I think this is as it should be, just that now overtaking should change to be more than ever about following closely and thus forcing the leading car into a mistake and/or good positioning during a sequence of corners.
If the cars allow closer following in the corner before a straight, then DRS should become unnecessary anyway. DRS was only ever a way to get the following car close enough to overtake at the end of the straight. It did become too powerful in some cases and passes were a breeze.

Overtaking should be a "possibility" not a "definite" and setting up an attack over the course of a lap is a key skill for racing drivers. It would be good if the new cars rewarded the drivers that can set up an attack and not those that just rely on DRS. Also, we'll see more defensive racing rather than just driving people off track in the corner at the end of the straight. Think more stuff like the battle between Alonso and Hamilton in Hungary, and less the stuff like Verstappen and Hamilton in Brazil. I'm sure everyone would appreciate going back to "will he, won't he" battles over a lap or two and fewer "here I come with a 20km/h overspeed thanks to DRS".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

OO7
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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bosyber wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:18 pm
OO7 wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 7:01 pm
izzy wrote:
Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:48 pm

yes, I saw that, thanks. It is wider but I'm just thinking there are some other factors as well like the end plates and the angle of attack it starts with, and the air pressure it's working in at the time. And I'm not sure Valtteri is talking about his actual experience. But the big difference is getting within that 1s to start with isn't it so it should be good either way. And if it's too good they can just change the zone or trigger point or just turn it off.
I agreed. Those are good points izzy.
From this racefans article, the quotes from drivers indicate that more powerful DRS really is a relative effect where both the wider flap, and the fact that the slipstream (in the corners 'dirty air') is reduced which lead to a car being easier to follow onto a straight, but having more trouble following there if not for DRS enabling them to pass. I guess we'll see; it does make sense, but it would be a pity to have f1 now feel like it needs DRS for a different reason than before. Personally I think this is as it should be, just that now overtaking should change to be more than ever about following closely and thus forcing the leading car into a mistake and/or good positioning during a sequence of corners.
I think DRS would always be necessary at some circuits, regardless of whether you can follow closely or not. Porsche Super Cup cars can follow each other very closely, but due to producing very little slipstream effect, overtaking is often impossible. Porsche Super Cup races are some of the most boring I've seen.

OO7
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:25 pm
Overtaking should be a "possibility" not a "definite" and setting up an attack over the course of a lap is a key skill for racing drivers. It would be good if the new cars rewarded the drivers that can set up an attack and not those that just rely on DRS. Also, we'll see more defensive racing rather than just driving people off track in the corner at the end of the straight. Think more stuff like the battle between Alonso and Hamilton in Hungary, and less the stuff like Verstappen and Hamilton in Brazil. I'm sure everyone would appreciate going back to "will he, won't he" battles over a lap or two and fewer "here I come with a 20km/h overspeed thanks to DRS".
I don't think I've watch an F1 race where I'd say DRS was to powerful. Usually there are a number of circumstance that have lead to a drive-by pass, such as the car ahead having worn tyres and driving significantly off the pace. Have more robust tyres in 2022 (if that does transpire), will reduce the ability to create meaningful tyre offsets.

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dave kumar
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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OO7 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:07 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:25 pm
Overtaking should be a "possibility" not a "definite" and setting up an attack over the course of a lap is a key skill for racing drivers. It would be good if the new cars rewarded the drivers that can set up an attack and not those that just rely on DRS. Also, we'll see more defensive racing rather than just driving people off track in the corner at the end of the straight. Think more stuff like the battle between Alonso and Hamilton in Hungary, and less the stuff like Verstappen and Hamilton in Brazil. I'm sure everyone would appreciate going back to "will he, won't he" battles over a lap or two and fewer "here I come with a 20km/h overspeed thanks to DRS".
I don't think I've watch an F1 race where I'd say DRS was to powerful. Usually there are a number of circumstance that have lead to a drive-by pass, such as the car ahead having worn tyres and driving significantly off the pace. Have more robust tyres in 2022 (if that does transpire), will reduce the ability to create meaningful tyre offsets.
It's a question of how do you measure success (or excitement in this case). I would agree with Just_a_fan, that for me it is about close racing with the possibility of an overtake. Those have been my most memorable experiences, watching say Button and Hamilton, in a close battle over multiple laps, watching the move and counter-move of trying to setup an attack. I am underwhelmed by the prospect of a car breezing up and passing another car at the first attempt - whether that is due to a large tyre delta or DRS or some combination.

OO7 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:03 pm
...I think DRS would always be necessary at some circuits, regardless of whether you can follow closely or not. Porsche Super Cup cars can follow each other very closely, but due to producing very little slipstream effect, overtaking is often impossible. Porsche Super Cup races are some of the most boring I've seen.
If they tune DRS so it doesn't result in large speed differences at the end of straights, then it may actually prove to be a beneficial way enhancing the slip-steaming effect. It'll be intriguing to see how the drivers' tactics adapt to these new cars. Overtaking attempts may happen in different areas of the track than we are traditionally used to if they can follow more closely in the corners and stay close along the straights.
Formerly known as senna-toleman

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jjn9128
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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dave kumar wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:05 pm
OO7 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:07 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:25 pm
Overtaking should be a "possibility" not a "definite" and setting up an attack over the course of a lap is a key skill for racing drivers. It would be good if the new cars rewarded the drivers that can set up an attack and not those that just rely on DRS. Also, we'll see more defensive racing rather than just driving people off track in the corner at the end of the straight. Think more stuff like the battle between Alonso and Hamilton in Hungary, and less the stuff like Verstappen and Hamilton in Brazil. I'm sure everyone would appreciate going back to "will he, won't he" battles over a lap or two and fewer "here I come with a 20km/h overspeed thanks to DRS".
I don't think I've watch an F1 race where I'd say DRS was to powerful. Usually there are a number of circumstance that have lead to a drive-by pass, such as the car ahead having worn tyres and driving significantly off the pace. Have more robust tyres in 2022 (if that does transpire), will reduce the ability to create meaningful tyre offsets.
It's a question of how do you measure success (or excitement in this case). I would agree with Just_a_fan, that for me it is about close racing with the possibility of an overtake. Those have been my most memorable experiences, watching say Button and Hamilton, in a close battle over multiple laps, watching the move and counter-move of trying to setup an attack. I am underwhelmed by the prospect of a car breezing up and passing another car at the first attempt - whether that is due to a large tyre delta or DRS or some combination.

OO7 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:03 pm
...I think DRS would always be necessary at some circuits, regardless of whether you can follow closely or not. Porsche Super Cup cars can follow each other very closely, but due to producing very little slipstream effect, overtaking is often impossible. Porsche Super Cup races are some of the most boring I've seen.
If they tune DRS so it doesn't result in large speed differences at the end of straights, then it may actually prove to be a beneficial way enhancing the slip-steaming effect. It'll be intriguing to see how the drivers' tactics adapt to these new cars. Overtaking attempts may happen in different areas of the track than we are traditionally used to if they can follow more closely in the corners and stay close along the straights.
This is why "overtaking" is a disingenuous way of framing it. We want battles - that means the ability to defend a position. I've hopes for 2022 if the teams are close performance-wise.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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OO7 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:03 pm
I think DRS would always be necessary at some circuits, regardless of whether you can follow closely or not. Porsche Super Cup cars can follow each other very closely, but due to producing very little slipstream effect, overtaking is often impossible. Porsche Super Cup races are some of the most boring I've seen.
The likes of Formula Ford and Formula Vee certainly produce more exciting racing than Porsche 911s due to the low-powered wingless cars' ability to slipstream pass and then get slipstream repassed. Formula Ford and Formula Vee must be some of the few categories where leading at the beginning of the final lap can be a disadvantage!

I can't imagine that creating Formula Ford-like racing in Formula One is possible, sadly. I believe the goal rather is to allow a closely matched car to follow closely behind another without the second car killing the tyres or losing the aero balance, or ultimately without needing to rely on DRS to catch back up on the straights after losing time in the corners, such that DRS can eventually be eliminated?

OO7
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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dave kumar wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:05 pm
OO7 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:07 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:25 pm
Overtaking should be a "possibility" not a "definite" and setting up an attack over the course of a lap is a key skill for racing drivers. It would be good if the new cars rewarded the drivers that can set up an attack and not those that just rely on DRS. Also, we'll see more defensive racing rather than just driving people off track in the corner at the end of the straight. Think more stuff like the battle between Alonso and Hamilton in Hungary, and less the stuff like Verstappen and Hamilton in Brazil. I'm sure everyone would appreciate going back to "will he, won't he" battles over a lap or two and fewer "here I come with a 20km/h overspeed thanks to DRS".
I don't think I've watch an F1 race where I'd say DRS was to powerful. Usually there are a number of circumstance that have lead to a drive-by pass, such as the car ahead having worn tyres and driving significantly off the pace. Have more robust tyres in 2022 (if that does transpire), will reduce the ability to create meaningful tyre offsets.
It's a question of how do you measure success (or excitement in this case). I would agree with Just_a_fan, that for me it is about close racing with the possibility of an overtake. Those have been my most memorable experiences, watching say Button and Hamilton, in a close battle over multiple laps, watching the move and counter-move of trying to setup an attack. I am underwhelmed by the prospect of a car breezing up and passing another car at the first attempt - whether that is due to a large tyre delta or DRS or some combination.

OO7 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:03 pm
...I think DRS would always be necessary at some circuits, regardless of whether you can follow closely or not. Porsche Super Cup cars can follow each other very closely, but due to producing very little slipstream effect, overtaking is often impossible. Porsche Super Cup races are some of the most boring I've seen.
If they tune DRS so it doesn't result in large speed differences at the end of straights, then it may actually prove to be a beneficial way enhancing the slip-steaming effect. It'll be intriguing to see how the drivers' tactics adapt to these new cars. Overtaking attempts may happen in different areas of the track than we are traditionally used to if they can follow more closely in the corners and stay close along the straights.
dave kumar wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:05 pm
It's a question of how do you measure success (or excitement in this case). I would agree with Just_a_fan, that for me it is about close racing with the possibility of an overtake. Those have been my most memorable experiences, watching say Button and Hamilton, in a close battle over multiple laps, watching the move and counter-move of trying to setup an attack. I am underwhelmed by the prospect of a car breezing up and passing another car at the first attempt - whether that is due to a large tyre delta or DRS or some combination.
Yes, I should have been more clear. When I talk about overtaking I really mean where overtaking is possible. Often we see cars unable to get anywhere close to mounting an attack due to wake effects and in such circumstances, close racing and the ability to overtake or attempt an overtake is impossible.

dave kumar wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:05 pm
If they tune DRS so it doesn't result in large speed differences at the end of straights, then it may actually prove to be a beneficial way enhancing the slip-steaming effect. It'll be intriguing to see how the drivers' tactics adapt to these new cars. Overtaking attempts may happen in different areas of the track than we are traditionally used to if they can follow more closely in the corners and stay close along the straights.
I don't think that would enhance the slipstream effect, as the slipstream effect from the car ahead would be fix (speed dependant of course). Also you could have smaller DRS slot gap to reduce the end of straight speed difference, but then the straight may not be long enough. The best implementation of DRS is to have a large enough slot gap, but tune the length of the zones.

OO7
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:13 pm
I can't imagine that creating Formula Ford-like racing in Formula One is possible, sadly. I believe the goal rather is to allow a closely matched car to follow closely behind another without the second car killing the tyres or losing the aero balance, or ultimately without needing to rely on DRS to catch back up on the straights after losing time in the corners, such that DRS can eventually be eliminated?
There may be a way. I've been saying for years that I'll post an idea (had the idea in 2010, been thinking about writing the regs since 2015 :lol: ) that I had on this, but I didn't want to spend time writing out a set of convoluted technical regulations for it. The 2022 regs are even more complex, so what I'll do is just reference regulatory techniques from F.I.A published regs (both 2022 style and early) and apply them to my concept, allowing the reader to get an idea of the regulation used to govern that part of my concept, e.g "volume and radius restrictions similar to article xx in the 2022 regs".

Hoffman900
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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I'm not so sure many of these cars are going to be close enough performance wise for over taking to matter. You'll never have draft pack / back and forth in Formula 1. Tire degradation and strategies will always be at play as well.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:08 pm


This is why "overtaking" is a disingenuous way of framing it. We want battles - that means the ability to defend a position. I've hopes for 2022 if the teams are close performance-wise.
And this is why the FIA's insistence on listening to "fans" that say "we want lots of overtaking" is bad for the sport. Lots of overtaking is not exciting. Lots of chances to overtake, where the skill of both drivers is tested and an pass is not guaranteed, that's exciting.

If F1 just becomes a sport where there are 200 overtakes each race and the winner just happens to be the guy that pulls off the last pass in the race, then that's not going to be much fun, is it? It'd be novel the first time, sure, but after that it would be as dull as a single team dominating from the front.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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jjn9128
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:46 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:08 pm


This is why "overtaking" is a disingenuous way of framing it. We want battles - that means the ability to defend a position. I've hopes for 2022 if the teams are close performance-wise.
And this is why the FIA's insistence on listening to "fans" that say "we want lots of overtaking" is bad for the sport. Lots of overtaking is not exciting. Lots of chances to overtake, where the skill of both drivers is tested and an pass is not guaranteed, that's exciting.

If F1 just becomes a sport where there are 200 overtakes each race and the winner just happens to be the guy that pulls off the last pass in the race, then that's not going to be much fun, is it? It'd be novel the first time, sure, but after that it would be as dull as a single team dominating from the front.
It's occasionally fun - but long term no. This is partly where F1's future direction worries me. While I hated Mosely and Ecclestone - at least they had a vision. We'd have had a proper budget cap 12 years ago.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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dans79
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:23 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:46 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:08 pm


This is why "overtaking" is a disingenuous way of framing it. We want battles - that means the ability to defend a position. I've hopes for 2022 if the teams are close performance-wise.
And this is why the FIA's insistence on listening to "fans" that say "we want lots of overtaking" is bad for the sport. Lots of overtaking is not exciting. Lots of chances to overtake, where the skill of both drivers is tested and an pass is not guaranteed, that's exciting.

If F1 just becomes a sport where there are 200 overtakes each race and the winner just happens to be the guy that pulls off the last pass in the race, then that's not going to be much fun, is it? It'd be novel the first time, sure, but after that it would be as dull as a single team dominating from the front.
It's occasionally fun - but long term no. This is partly where F1's future direction worries me. While I hated Mosely and Ecclestone - at least they had a vision. We'd have had a proper budget cap 12 years ago.
Liberty/FIA has a vision, and to achieve it they will do whatever it takes, no matter how distasteful it is to more cultured fans!

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Zynerji
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:23 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:46 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:08 pm


This is why "overtaking" is a disingenuous way of framing it. We want battles - that means the ability to defend a position. I've hopes for 2022 if the teams are close performance-wise.
And this is why the FIA's insistence on listening to "fans" that say "we want lots of overtaking" is bad for the sport. Lots of overtaking is not exciting. Lots of chances to overtake, where the skill of both drivers is tested and an pass is not guaranteed, that's exciting.

If F1 just becomes a sport where there are 200 overtakes each race and the winner just happens to be the guy that pulls off the last pass in the race, then that's not going to be much fun, is it? It'd be novel the first time, sure, but after that it would be as dull as a single team dominating from the front.
It's occasionally fun - but long term no. This is partly where F1's future direction worries me. While I hated Mosely and Ecclestone - at least they had a vision. We'd have had a proper budget cap 12 years ago.
Some day, I hope someone writes a book on the designs that never saw light with the 2010 40M$, run what you want ruleset...