Ferrari SF1000

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
mmred
mmred
-3
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:19 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

NoDivergence wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:10 pm
Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:52 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:24 pm


In this fuel restricted, efficiency formula, gains are compounded.

In qualifying if you go faster you get to run the higher PU modes for a greater percentage of the lap which makes you even faster.

In the race you can run lower fuel which in turn means faster lap times, or the same lap times with lower stress on PU, tyres and brakes. Which means shorter race time which is the objective.

It doesn’t matter if the improved lap time comes from better aero or PU or driver. The faster you go the faster you can go.
But don't you think all run on high PU for qualifying and still whole grid is like 1 sec behind the merc. What i feel is how they are so good without doing nothing wrong. When ferrari was quick just at straights whole merc started to make hell lot of noise but here both merc's being 1 sec fast and still no one even raises a question?
The car is good everywhere, especially corners. Tell, me, how did they cheat to have their car handle and corner so well?
it s simple: more engine implies you can use more wing in corners

Xwang
Xwang
28
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

NoDivergence wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:10 pm
Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:52 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:24 pm


In this fuel restricted, efficiency formula, gains are compounded.

In qualifying if you go faster you get to run the higher PU modes for a greater percentage of the lap which makes you even faster.

In the race you can run lower fuel which in turn means faster lap times, or the same lap times with lower stress on PU, tyres and brakes. Which means shorter race time which is the objective.

It doesn’t matter if the improved lap time comes from better aero or PU or driver. The faster you go the faster you can go.
But don't you think all run on high PU for qualifying and still whole grid is like 1 sec behind the merc. What i feel is how they are so good without doing nothing wrong. When ferrari was quick just at straights whole merc started to make hell lot of noise but here both merc's being 1 sec fast and still no one even raises a question?
The car is good everywhere, especially corners. Tell, me, how did they cheat to have their car handle and corner so well?
1) If you cheat and have more power and you are not silly, you add downforce to your car that magically becomes better in the corners while being still slight better in maximum speed and nobody thinks it is given by your great downforce

2) other ways of cheating is by using flexible bodyworks

3) and/or hiding traction control programs inside you PU and differential management programs

4) and/or developing hydraulic suspension systems which stores energy and behaves pretty like active ones (obviously with a fake alternative project and component of same external shape and weight to be analysed by FIA for approval)

5) and/or doing more CFD and wind tunnels hours

6) and/or doing secret tyre tests with the tyre supplier

a lot of the above are extremely risky, but only if you know that someone will check.

If you are sure nobody will ever question what you are doing you can implement all the above and even more.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

zibby43
zibby43
611
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

In this hybrid era, when the FIA has issued Technical Directives, whether it be on power unit tricks or flexible bodywork, it’s usually Merc’s competitors that take a step back.

Pretty illuminating on which teams are taking shortcuts and which one is putting in the work.

Xwang
Xwang
28
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:55 pm
In this hybrid era, when the FIA has issued Technical Directives, whether it be on power unit tricks or flexible bodywork, it’s usually Merc’s competitors that take a step back.

Pretty illuminating on which teams are taking shortcuts and which one is putting in the work.
It depends if FIA is not looking at Merc's shortcuts.
For example Mercedes' blown hubs were partially legal for FIA while they were banned some years before when the same concept was used by Red Bull.
Last edited by Xwang on Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

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Alakshendra
-2
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:48 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Xwang wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:31 pm
NoDivergence wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:10 pm
Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:52 pm

But don't you think all run on high PU for qualifying and still whole grid is like 1 sec behind the merc. What i feel is how they are so good without doing nothing wrong. When ferrari was quick just at straights whole merc started to make hell lot of noise but here both merc's being 1 sec fast and still no one even raises a question?
The car is good everywhere, especially corners. Tell, me, how did they cheat to have their car handle and corner so well?
1) If you cheat and have more power and you are not silly, you add downforce to your car that magically becomes better in the corners while being still slight better in maximum speed and nobody thinks it is given by your great downforce

2) other ways of cheating is by using flexible bodyworks

3) and/or hiding traction control programs inside you PU and differential management programs

4) and/or developing hydraulic suspension systems which stores energy and behaves pretty like active ones (obviously with a fake alternative project and component of same external shape and weight to be analysed by FIA for approval)

5) and/or doing more CFD and wind tunnels hours

6) and/or doing secret tyre tests with the tyre supplier

a lot of the above are extremely risky, but only if you know that someone will check.

If you are sure nobody will ever question what you are doing you can implement all the above and even more.
Thanks , This really helps, i am not putting any alligations on merc but they are 1 second faster, they dont need hamilton or bottas for it, its a 1 sec gap , any driver can win in that car easily, which is why i feel something might be wrong, never seen such a beast car, how can someone have such incredible gains made me feel lot of grey areas on merc car.

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Alakshendra
-2
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:48 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

zibby43 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:55 pm
In this hybrid era, when the FIA has issued Technical Directives, whether it be on power unit tricks or flexible bodywork, it’s usually Merc’s competitors that take a step back.

Pretty illuminating on which teams are taking shortcuts and which one is putting in the work.
That's the point, either its PU or the DAS or anything else Merc always has the edge and everything remains in grey areas and FIA never put any serious investigation and this time they are a sec faster in qualifiers and that is seriously insane.

NoDivergence
NoDivergence
47
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:52 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

mmred wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:26 pm
NoDivergence wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:10 pm
Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:52 pm

But don't you think all run on high PU for qualifying and still whole grid is like 1 sec behind the merc. What i feel is how they are so good without doing nothing wrong. When ferrari was quick just at straights whole merc started to make hell lot of noise but here both merc's being 1 sec fast and still no one even raises a question?
The car is good everywhere, especially corners. Tell, me, how did they cheat to have their car handle and corner so well?
it s simple: more engine implies you can use more wing in corners
Go take a look at the wings in Hungary. Mercedes doesn't have more wing than anyone else. On top of that, Hungary isn't a power track anyways

Xwang
Xwang
28
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:12 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

NoDivergence wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:19 pm
mmred wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:26 pm
NoDivergence wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:10 pm


The car is good everywhere, especially corners. Tell, me, how did they cheat to have their car handle and corner so well?
it s simple: more engine implies you can use more wing in corners
Go take a look at the wings in Hungary. Mercedes doesn't have more wing than anyone else. On top of that, Hungary isn't a power track anyways
You get downforce using wings, bargeboards, bottom.
You can move toward higher downforce generating concept because even if more draggy you cover that with the additional power.
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

zibby43
zibby43
611
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:13 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:55 pm
In this hybrid era, when the FIA has issued Technical Directives, whether it be on power unit tricks or flexible bodywork, it’s usually Merc’s competitors that take a step back.

Pretty illuminating on which teams are taking shortcuts and which one is putting in the work.
That's the point, either its PU or the DAS or anything else Merc always has the edge and everything remains in grey areas and FIA never put any serious investigation and this time they are a sec faster in qualifiers and that is seriously insane.
No. It's quite the opposite, actually. Merc are able to build on a solid foundation year after year, whereas other teams are looking for gains with a short-sighted approach, then got knocked back a peg. No wonder they end up slipping behind.

The libelous claims against Merc are already getting tired. Ferrari got caught dead-to-rights. It is what it is.

zibby43
zibby43
611
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Xwang wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:24 pm
NoDivergence wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:19 pm
mmred wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:26 pm


it s simple: more engine implies you can use more wing in corners
Go take a look at the wings in Hungary. Mercedes doesn't have more wing than anyone else. On top of that, Hungary isn't a power track anyways
You get downforce using wings, bargeboards, bottom.
You can move toward higher downforce generating concept because even if more draggy you cover that with the additional power.
Or you can get the downforce from the floor and the diffuser. Which is an efficient source of downforce from 2 of the most powerful areas on the entire car in terms of generating downforce.

What a shocker, Merc completely re-designed their rear suspension and diffuser this year after having a slightly draggy car last year.

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siskue2005
70
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

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Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:52 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:24 pm
Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:39 am

Thanks, but still 1 sec a lap quicker, i still feel there is something wrong but other teams are not able to catch them. 1 sec is a huge margin.
In this fuel restricted, efficiency formula, gains are compounded.

In qualifying if you go faster you get to run the higher PU modes for a greater percentage of the lap which makes you even faster.

In the race you can run lower fuel which in turn means faster lap times, or the same lap times with lower stress on PU, tyres and brakes. Which means shorter race time which is the objective.

It doesn’t matter if the improved lap time comes from better aero or PU or driver. The faster you go the faster you can go.
But don't you think all run on high PU for qualifying and still whole grid is like 1 sec behind the merc. What i feel is how they are so good without doing nothing wrong. When ferrari was quick just at straights whole merc started to make hell lot of noise but here both merc's being 1 sec fast and still no one even raises a question?
Shows you have not paid attention to what really was Ferrari's straight line speed advantage.

The speed advantage when viewed from GPS was in accelaration phase and over a lap their advantage cannot to equated or was more than the amount of ERS deployment. (It is discussed thoroughly in Ferrari engine thread, please check that)

And PS: it was not Mercedes who found it, it was RBR team who got the GPS correlates
and it was not just Mercedes who make hell lot of noise but it was every team on the grid.

grubschumi13
grubschumi13
1
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:34 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:13 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:55 pm
In this hybrid era, when the FIA has issued Technical Directives, whether it be on power unit tricks or flexible bodywork, it’s usually Merc’s competitors that take a step back.

Pretty illuminating on which teams are taking shortcuts and which one is putting in the work.
That's the point, either its PU or the DAS or anything else Merc always has the edge and everything remains in grey areas and FIA never put any serious investigation and this time they are a sec faster in qualifiers and that is seriously insane.
True. I remember when RBR were dominating, the FIA were constantly banning innovations on their car in a bid to slow them down. Sometimes banning their innovations mid season. Horner grips about this. With Merc FIA approve everything from wheel hubs in 2017 to DAS.

zibby43
zibby43
611
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

grubschumi13 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:43 pm
Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:13 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:55 pm
In this hybrid era, when the FIA has issued Technical Directives, whether it be on power unit tricks or flexible bodywork, it’s usually Merc’s competitors that take a step back.

Pretty illuminating on which teams are taking shortcuts and which one is putting in the work.
That's the point, either its PU or the DAS or anything else Merc always has the edge and everything remains in grey areas and FIA never put any serious investigation and this time they are a sec faster in qualifiers and that is seriously insane.
True. I remember when RBR were dominating, the FIA were constantly banning innovations on their car in a bid to slow them down. Sometimes banning their innovations mid season. Horner grips about this. With Merc FIA approve everything from wheel hubs in 2017 to DAS.
Wrong.

The FIA banned Merc's FRIC in 2014 into 2015.

Then the FIA banned Merc's legal hydraulic suspension with heave element in 2017 after a requested clarification from Ferrari.

DAS is banned for '21.

And they changed the aero regulations twice in the hybrid era.

Is it make-up-facts day today, and I missed it? :D

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Alakshendra
-2
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 4:48 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

Few Observations about Ferrari

First race in Austria: Seb comments car is undrivable and it feels nowhere to be the same car which we had in practice sessions.

Second race in austria: Charles comments this car is undrivable.

Third Race: Charles comments this car is very difficult to drive, not the same car we had in qualifiers

We all are aware that the power unit of Ferrari is a disaster and has no straight-line speed, something that they always had before but the last decade has been a disaster for the team.

And now the comments of drivers shows that the engineers are not even doing proper car setup which was found in practice sessions or in qualifiers, makes me wonder what has Ferrari done in the hiring department.

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siskue2005
70
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Ferrari SF1000

Post

grubschumi13 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:43 pm
Alakshendra wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:13 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:55 pm
In this hybrid era, when the FIA has issued Technical Directives, whether it be on power unit tricks or flexible bodywork, it’s usually Merc’s competitors that take a step back.

Pretty illuminating on which teams are taking shortcuts and which one is putting in the work.
That's the point, either its PU or the DAS or anything else Merc always has the edge and everything remains in grey areas and FIA never put any serious investigation and this time they are a sec faster in qualifiers and that is seriously insane.
True. I remember when RBR were dominating, the FIA were constantly banning innovations on their car in a bid to slow them down. Sometimes banning their innovations mid season. Horner grips about this. With Merc FIA approve everything from wheel hubs in 2017 to DAS.
Again shows the lack of knowledge about the two system

The presence of the holes pointed back to Red Bull's banned concept from 2012 where air channels were rotating to help with airflow.
Image

The Mercedes concept of blown axles – which was pioneered by Williams in 2013 – has always been based on the airflow channel being fixed, as can be seen below, so there could be no grey area about the holes rotating.

Image

The difference to RBR and Merc concept is that Merc blows to just cool the air and doesnot effect aero as compared to RBR
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... a/3196635/

We are going off topic with this whining about teams who cant catch Mercedes, as this is Ferrari thread