F1 current hybrid turbocharger actual weight

[gruntguru]

I'm wondering the same.
Having turbo with higher inertia could be an advantage when bypassing 4/2MJ rules.

I don’t see much room to use the H as some kind of flywheel to store energy, as there is the limit of 125.000 rpm. The moment you want the K energised again, there is also air demand for the ICE.

I was thinking more in line of the 125.000 limit. If ICE designers choose to have a stable fuel/air mix above 10.500 rpm, the turbo should spin on a stable 125.000 rpm trough the whole powerband (of whatever speed the designers choose).

And if something is rotating on a stable speed, weight doesn’t matter.

See the Honda Power unit thread for how the rotating parts of the turbocharger are used to store energy. Its use as a fly-wheel happens between rapid frequency charge and discharge cycles. (40kHz to be exact). This is how "extra harvest" is done.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is also some energy being stored and released inductively in the coils of the MGUH.

[saviour stivala]

Of course there is nothing in the rule book mandating the brake pedal as the only means to put the 'MGU-H' into 'GENERATOR MODE'. That's because the 'MGU-H' have nothing to do with the brake pedal.

Apologies, I meant MGUK of course.
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There are many things that are not in the rule book mandating this and that. Yet very few dare goes to that edge of the rule book to make the car faster.

Controlling the _GUK without use of the brake pedal is nowhere near the "edge" of the rulebook and of course the M_UK is controlled entirely by the energy management system (yes the throttle input is part of the energy management system).
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The MGU-H/TURBO (compressor/turbine) combination development started to really come together after 3-4 years of development at around 2017/18. Up to around that time nobody could deploy electric power all around the lap. At around 2018 Mercedes Andy Cowell was the first to claim the ‘now we are in a position of being capable to deploy electric power all around the lap’.
If that MGU-H/TURBO combination development gains did not happen. They would not only still be unable to deploy electric power all around the lap. But not even the 2mj/lap allowed to be harvested by the MGU-K. Because the MGU-K could not on its own harvest what it is allowed too under braking. At least on most tracks. If harvesting by the MGU-K other than under braking was allowed. That problem wouldn’t exists.

That problem would still exist. 2 MJ/lap is not enough to deploy electric power to the MGUK "all around the lap". Incidentally I don't disagree with anything you say about MGUH development.

There are at least two pieces of evidence for _GUK operation without brake pedal.
1. Look at the MGUK trace in the picture below. There are several segments where the yellow (extra harvest) trace sits horizontally below the zero (neither charging nor discharging) line. The blue trace (without extra harvest) is following the zero line in these segments.

In particular - between 25% - 35% from the beginning of the chart, there is a twisty section of track where the "extra harvest" function is deployed several times in constant speed and even accelerating zones. Clearly the driver does not require full power and the control system is loading the MGUK and charging the ES via the MGUH to avoid adding to the 2MJ/lap limit. Note the yellow line sits at a fixed level below zero during extra harvest (about 35 kW) - the extra harvest system cannot utilise the full 120 kW capability of the MGUK.

https://image.ibb.co/gPMngb/hondaf1.jpg

2. Lift and coast. There is no friction braking during lift and coast. Do you believe the initial "touch" on the brake pedal applies 120 kW of braking to the rear axle? This would be catastrophic when the driver needs to touch the brakes during cornering.

I know we have been here before but it would help if you could reference the section of the regulations that makes you so sure the teams are not allowed to harvest from the MGUK with the brake pedal.

Apologies Hollus but I believe we are covering some new ground here.

Scope and spirit of the F1 hybrid. Motor generator Kinetic harvests energy under braking that would otherwise be wasted as heat.
‘K’ > ‘ES’ maximum 2mj/lap. ‘K’ > ‘H’ unlimited. ‘H’ > ‘ES’ unlimited.
Honda claimed extra harvest by ‘K’:- ‘K’ > ‘H’ > ‘ES’.
If Honda claimed ‘extra harvest’ was done other than when under braking it would have made mockery of the spirit of the regulations no less than the claimed storing of fuel that have passed through the fuel flow meter to use in greater quantity than what the regulations allows.

[subcritical71]

Which F1 team follows the 'spirit' of the regulations when an advantage can be gained? I bet it's the same as the number of drivers that adhere to the 'gentleman's agreement' when an advantage can be gained.

[saviour stivala]

Which F1 team follows the 'spirit' of the regulations when an advantage can be gained? I bet it's the same as the number of drivers that adhere to the 'gentleman's agreement' when an advantage can be gained.

From your tone (which F1 team follows the 'spirit's of the regulations when an advantage can be gained?) you sounds like harvesting other than when braking is not within the spirits of the hybrid formula but it’s OK as long as one can gain some extra harvesting.

[nzjrs]

If Honda claimed ‘extra harvest’ was done other than when under braking it would have made mockery of the spirit of the regulations no less than the claimed storing of fuel that have passed through the fuel flow meter to use in greater quantity than what the regulations allows.

What do you see when you look closely at the picture?

[gruntguru]

If Honda claimed ‘extra harvest’ was done other than when under braking it would have made mockery of the spirit of the regulations no less than the claimed storing of fuel that have passed through the fuel flow meter to use in greater quantity than what the regulations allows.

What do you see when you look closely at the picture?

I even told you exactly where to look.

"Extra harvest" is an even better example of the regulations being stretched to the limit (I am surprised the FIA approved this). The regulation which limits MGUK harvesting to 2MJ/lap was intended to do exactly that. The Honda solution (extra harvest) enables Honda (and no doubt every team has since copied) to harvest more than 2MJ/lap from the MGUK by sending some of the energy "indirectly" to the ES. It is a ridiculous and useless piece of technology - the FIA should simply have raised the limit rather than allow this workaround.

As to the "spirit of the rules" - could you please post the wording of the RULE that suggests this "spirit"? I can't find it.

[nzjrs]

If Honda claimed ‘extra harvest’ was done other than when under braking it would have made mockery of the spirit of the regulations no less than the claimed storing of fuel that have passed through the fuel flow meter to use in greater quantity than what the regulations allows.

What do you see when you look closely at the picture?

I even told you exactly where to look.

Sorry yeah, I was asking old slippery SS. I see exactly what you see

[saviour stivala]

‘I know we have been here before but if you could reference the section of the regulations that makes you so sure the teams are not allowed to harvest from the mgu-k with the brake pedal’.
‘Apologies hollus but I believe we are covering some new ground here’.
For sure we are covering some new ground here. In fact I could not reference any section of the regulations that makes me so sure the teams are not allowed to harvest from the mgu-k with the brake pedal. Simply because it is the brake pedal which is meant to trigger the energy harvesting that would otherwise goes to waste.

[gruntguru]

What do you see when you look closely at the picture?

I even told you exactly where to look.

Sorry yeah, I was asking old slippery SS. I see exactly what you see

Sorry, the comment was meant for SS.

[gruntguru]

‘I know we have been here before but if you could reference the section of the regulations that makes you so sure the teams are not allowed to harvest from the mgu-k with the brake pedal’.
‘Apologies hollus but I believe we are covering some new ground here’.
For sure we are covering some new ground here. In fact I could not reference any section of the regulations that makes me so sure the teams are not allowed to harvest from the mgu-k with the brake pedal. Simply because it is the brake pedal which is meant to trigger the energy harvesting that would otherwise goes to waste.

Very clever. How about this?

I know we have been here before but it would help if you could reference the section of the regulations that makes you so sure the teams are not allowed to harvest from the MGUK without the brake pedal.

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and this:

As to the "spirit of the rules" - could you please post the wording of the RULE that suggests this "spirit"? I can't find it.

[subcritical71]

The only place I have ever seen 'spirit' of rules mentioned as a regulatory item is Article 19 and 20 concerning fuel and lubricants, and this is a somewhat recent addition (last year?);

19.1.3  Any petrol, which appears to have been formulated in order to subvert the purpose of this 
regulation, will be deemed to be outside it. 

20.1.1  The purpose of this Article is to ensure that the engine oil used in Formula One is engine oil as 
this term is generally understood. The function of an engine oil is to lubricate moving parts, to 
improve the overall efficiency of the engine by reducing friction and to reduce wear. It also 
cleans, inhibits corrosion, improves sealing, and cools the engine by carrying heat away from 
moving parts. Engine oils should not enhance the properties of the fuel nor energize the 
combustion. The presence of any component that cannot be rationally associated with the 
defined functions of the engine oil will be deemed unacceptable. 

[saviour stivala]

‘Spirit of the rules’ ‘The aim or purpose of a law when it was written’.
The aim and purpose behind the introduction of the hybrid power unit.
A turbocharged direct injected fuel load and fuel flow restricted ICE complemented by an ERS energy recovery system consisting of 2 motor generator units that harness waste heat energy (from the turbocharger) and waste kinetic energy (from the braking system). A set of rules/regulations followed the introduction of the above hybrid power unit. ‘The spirit of the rules’ represents the aim or purpose of said rules when written.
Any so called ‘extra’ harvesting over and above the spirit of the harvesting rules. Even if not specifically written will fall outside said spirits of the rules. No more and no less than the pushed-out polemics of the accumulation of fuel past the flow meter and the supposed power gains by burning oil. Both of which were not originally specifically written and both of which were countered by a TD when fomented about.
There is no way the regulator will allow any ‘extra’ harvesting. No manufacturer is going to admit that the telemetry traces shown by a formula one over the counter magazine are officially his or any of his project engineers have admitted to said magazine to such ‘extra’ harvesting practices.
Gruntguru finally admitted and wrote (‘extra harvest’ is an even better example of the regulations being stretched to the limit). (I am surprised the FIA approved this). I say the FIA did not and cannot approve any ‘extra’ harvesting.

[nzjrs]

No manufacturer is going to admit that the telemetry traces shown by a formula one over the counter magazine are officially his or any of his project engineers have admitted to said magazine to such ‘extra’ harvesting practices.

So you agree that Honda does extra harvesting but they don't want to admit it?

(I admit I might just not understand your text as written...)

[gruntguru]

Gruntguru finally admitted and wrote (‘extra harvest’ is an even better example of the regulations being stretched to the limit). (I am surprised the FIA approved this). I say the FIA did not and cannot approve any ‘extra’ harvesting.

I have always said the "extra harvest" is a ridiculous workaround.

The point we can gain from the "extra harvest" scenario is:
- The FIA knows about this. The telemetry traces published were released by Honda. The complexity is far beyond anything that could be created by a journalist. The FIA have access to similar data that will confirm it exists and it functions as described.
- The FIA have done nothing to regulate this function.
- The "extra harvest" function is a serious contravention of a clearly written rule (there is a rule that states that harvesting from the MGUK to the ES is limited to 2MJ/lap.)
- MGUK harvesting during non-braking track events (eg lift and coast, or part load where harvesting moves the ICE operating point to a higher thermal efficiency) to make up any shortfall in the 2 MJ/lap limit, does not contravene any written rule. In fact it does not even contravene the spirit of the rules - the primary function of the MGUK remains "to harvest energy during braking".

[Jolle]

Gruntguru finally admitted and wrote (‘extra harvest’ is an even better example of the regulations being stretched to the limit). (I am surprised the FIA approved this). I say the FIA did not and cannot approve any ‘extra’ harvesting.

I have always said the "extra harvest" is a ridiculous workaround.

The point we can gain from the "extra harvest" scenario is:
- The FIA knows about this. The telemetry traces published were released by Honda. The complexity is far beyond anything that could be created by a journalist. The FIA have access to similar data that will confirm it exists and it functions as described.
- The FIA have done nothing to regulate this function.
- The "extra harvest" function is a serious contravention of a clearly written rule (there is a rule that states that harvesting from the MGUH to the ES is limited to 2MJ/lap.)
- MGUH harvesting during non-braking track events (eg lift and coast, or part load where harvesting moves the ICE operating point to a higher thermal efficiency) to make up any shortfall in the 2 MJ/lap limit, does not contravene any written rule. In fact it does not even contravene the spirit of the rules - the primary function of the MGUH remains "to harvest energy during braking".

Don’t mix up the H (connected to the turbo and very unregulated) and K (connected to the crank, very regulated)