Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:11 pm
What sort of gasket does this use?
Unusual contours on the deck and it doesnt look like an O-ring.. Does the cylinder head have the counter surface to these cuts?
Based on these sketches there seems to be a groove for either metallic o rings or c rings.
At a second look that might actually be a regular o ring for sealing the water passage.

It's not unheard of to rely on a slightly proud liner lip biting into the head deck for sealing combustion. Done properly this eliminates any crevices associated with more conventional sealing arrangements.

Image

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
594
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:15 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:25 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:15 pm
What piston speeds do they get in drag race engines anyway ?
The IHRA Pro Stock engines are the most extreme (815ci (13.35L), 4.750" (120.65mm) bores, 5.750" (146.05mm) stroke, 7.750" (196.85mm) rod length, 8100-8500rpm).
They're north of 13,015fpm (3967 meters per minute / 66.12 mps).
I see, however because it is a big engine at not such a high engine speed the piston acceleration is just above 6000g while for example the cosworth v8 piston at 19000 RPM saw around 10600g (at a peak piston speed of only 42.4 m/s)
it's broadly the 146 mm stroke that gives the freakishly high piston speed with the rather low piston acceleration
this is a 1930s GP bore:stroke ratio
an 815ci or Nascar V8 with late NA F1 b:s ratio would give piston speed and acceleration rather close to late NA F1's

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:34 am
Mudflap wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:15 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:25 pm

The IHRA Pro Stock engines are the most extreme (815ci (13.35L), 4.750" (120.65mm) bores, 5.750" (146.05mm) stroke, 7.750" (196.85mm) rod length, 8100-8500rpm).
They're north of 13,015fpm (3967 meters per minute / 66.12 mps).
I see, however because it is a big engine at not such a high engine speed the piston acceleration is just above 6000g while for example the cosworth v8 piston at 19000 RPM saw around 10600g (at a peak piston speed of only 42.4 m/s)
it's broadly the 146 mm stroke that gives the freakishly high piston speed with the rather low piston acceleration
this is a 1930s GP bore:stroke ratio
an 815ci or Nascar V8 with late NA F1 b:s ratio would give piston speed and acceleration rather close to late NA F1's
I don't think NASCAR is anywhere close to NA F1 piston accelerations:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... _to_f1.htm

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

‘’-----each aluminium head had an integral tapped block and a 12 bolt fixing to the blog. Bronze rings sealed the wet nikasil coated aluminium liners, which were supported by the block in conventional fashion’.
In 1998 FO110G was used winning both driver & constructor championships. In 1999 FO110H was used defending the driver’s championship. In 2000 FO110J was used obtaining 7 wins. Weighing less than 95kg, the FO110J was ran to a max speed of 18000RPM and produce in excess of 800BHP at a peak-power-speed of 17500RPM. Mario;- ‘’We have allowed in 2000 (FO110J) the engine to go about 500RPM above peak-power-speed’’. And this coming season (2001) the peak-power-speed will be over 1800RPM?. ‘’We are always trying to increase it but for 2001 we have a regulation change – the new material limitation.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
594
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:50 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:34 am
it's broadly the 146 mm stroke that gives the freakishly high piston speed with the rather low piston acceleration
this is a 1930s GP bore:stroke ratio
an 815ci or Nascar V8 with late NA F1 b:s ratio would give piston speed and acceleration rather close to late NA F1's
I don't think NASCAR is anywhere close to NA F1 piston accelerations:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... _to_f1.htm
the 5.7litre Nascar V8 has '1950s F1' bore:stroke ratio almost exactly half the bore:stroke ratio of late NA F1
if it had b:s equal to late NA F1's wouldn't the ratio of piston speed to piston acceleration be equal ? (ignoring rod ratios)

EDIT yes of course ratio of piston speed to piston acceleration is most strongly rpm-dependent (for a given engine)
NOTE highest stockblock b:s ratio was Yunick's twin turbo 208 Chev at 1.76 98.4x55.9 (more than the turbo Rambler)
dohc Ford/Foyt 168 and 155 turbo b:s seems unknown
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:51 am
Mudflap wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:50 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:34 am
it's broadly the 146 mm stroke that gives the freakishly high piston speed with the rather low piston acceleration
this is a 1930s GP bore:stroke ratio
an 815ci or Nascar V8 with late NA F1 b:s ratio would give piston speed and acceleration rather close to late NA F1's
I don't think NASCAR is anywhere close to NA F1 piston accelerations:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... _to_f1.htm
the 5.7litre Nascar V8 has '1950s F1' bore:stroke ratio almost exactly half the bore:stroke ratio of late NA F1
if it had b:s equal to late NA F1's wouldn't the ratio of piston speed to piston acceleration be equal ? (ignoring rod ratios)
Ignoring rod length, for simple harmonic motion the maximum acceleration is given by crank radius times the square of angular velocity.

So if Nascar is twice the stroke and half the angular velocity, the piston acceleration ratio is
[r*(2w)^2]/[2rw^2]=2 where r is the F1 crank radius and w is the Nascar engine speed.

The F1 piston acceleration is roughly twice that of a Nascar engine.

ACRO
ACRO
5
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:25 pm

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

every series / engine has its fascination but like mentioned above - from an pure mechanical , engineering point of view - i think we will not find any 4 stroke atmo which is even comparable with these engines.

moto gp / superbike engines might be the closest but not 1:1 . beyond some glowplug rc engines i also do not think any other atmo ever build will come even close to the specific output hp/dispacement of the very late f1 atmo era.

on the other hand i,ve read a top fuel supercharged V8 drag race is able to stem nearly 10000 horses for the few seconds of the race - this alone is his class is also mind blowing , no question.

gruntguru
gruntguru
548
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

Yes - mind blowing. Top fuel is over 10,000 hp now by the way.
je suis charlie

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
368
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

Some pictures of the V10's spiritual successor (ScarbsF1 via Sky)
I think the solid timing idler gears have pendulum dampers inside, known to have been used on the V10.
The pistons have extra pin boss ribs which I was always told to avoid. Guess they are not Mahle pistons then :)

Image
Image

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

The connecting rods are black...?
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

Since the 1990 (first formula one engine) after encountering piston related problems Ilmor took control of piston manufacture by machining them in-house. But used Goetze rings. Later on they also Nikasil coated their liners in-house. The valves included angle of the subject engine was 22 degrees with the camshaft running directly in the head.

e36jon
e36jon
65
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:22 am
Location: California, USA

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:35 pm
Since the 1990 (first formula one engine) after encountering piston related problems Ilmor took control of piston manufacture by machining them in-house. But used Goetze rings. Later on they also Nikasil coated their liners in-house. The valves included angle of the subject engine was 22 degrees with the camshaft running directly in the head.
Greetings Saviour

I had not heard of Goetze rings before and Googled it. It's just a brand, right? No particular technical difference implied by using that name?

The valves on both the V10 and the V8 seem to be radial/compound angled, with two angular dimensions. So, 22 degrees when viewed from the front, between the exhaust and intake valves, and then another smaller when viewed from the side, between the intake valves and between the exhaust valves. Am I seeing that right? Any idea what the second angle is, between the exhaust valves or between the intake valves?

When you say the cams ran directly in the head does that mean no bolted-in caps? So the cams had to be inserted like they would in a small block Chevy, by sliding them in from the front or rear of the head?

I look forward to your answers!

Jon

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

The ''Goetze'' made and supplied piston rings (uncoated 2 rings per piston) Illmor used 30 years ago on their in-house machined but contracted-out forged RR58 (2618A) aluminium alloy pistons were off-the shelve items. there was no technical specialities about piston rings used in F1 at that time apart from careful tolerance selection.

Yes. the 22 degrees ''included'' valve angle I quoted was when viewed from front. This valve included angle used in the 3.0-litre era (late nineties) were all around 25 degrees or less, and some were even less 20 degrees.
Compound valve angles to maximise valve sizes. 2 valves on each side (2 intake) or 2 exhaust) splayed rather than parallel to each other. the compound angle maximized valve size to an extent that could see intake valve area reach as much as 39%of bore size.

Will have to check my notes re the ''splayed'' (front to back) compound valve angle and comes back to you.
''cams ran directly in the head'' means cams runs/rotate directly in the head material and no replaceable bearing shell/bearing bushes are used.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

Like most modern engines. Cams go directly in the head without bushings.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: Mercedes V10 F1 Engine - Picture Thread

Post

94 mm BORE, 3.5-LITRE V8 compared to 94 mm BORE, 3.0-LITRE V10.
3500cc v8 bore 94mm. 3000cc v10 bore 94mm.
3500cc v8 stroke 63.0mm. 3000cc v10 stroke 43.2mm.
3500cc v8 stroke; bore ratio 0.67. 3000cc v10 stroke; bore ratio 0.46.
3500cc v8 rpm max 13000. 3000cc v10 rpm max 19000.
3500cc v8 peak power rpm 12500, 3000cc v10 peak power rpm 18500.
3500cc v8 bhp 720. 3000cc v10 bhp 900.
3500cc v8 bmep (bar) 14.7. 3000cc v10 bmep (bar) 14.5.
3500cc v8 cc/cylinder 437cc. 3000cc v10 cc/cylinder 300cc.
3500cc v8 bhp/cylinder 90 bhp. 3000cc v10 bhp/cylinder 90bhp.
3500cc v8 mean piston speed (m/s) 27.2 m/s. 3000cc v10 mean piton speed (m/s) 27.3 m/s.
3500cc v8 max piston accel (ft/s) 236.833 ft/s. 3000cc v10 max piston accel (ft/s) 347.293 ft/s.
Last edited by saviour stivala on Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.