Electrical Noise in F1

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Big Tea
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:18 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:08 pm
You think it could be a position sensor that can not pinpoint its position due to vibration?
I think it's most likely a sensor and/or it's associated cabling that was damaged due to vibration and therefore gave erronous readings. I've had a number of cases with damaged sensors which showed a slow degredation of the sensor signal over the course of the day until it was just outputting white noise.
This is often the case with ceramic censors is it not? (hall effect). I have also seen mechanical censors where the tip has worn round due to friction, this also gives a the calibration circuit a headache as it persistently changes 'home'

No doubt we will not be told the actual cause just the instrument if we are lucky
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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It really could be any sensor type. Most sensors work via some kind of mechanical agitation that changs the electrical characteristics of the sensing element. These sensing elements are often glued to or interfaced to the mechanical portion via friction so it's possible to break them with an out of scale input or just from temperature and vibration.

I have had failure that look like this with potentiometers which broke mechanically (the electrical wiper was damaged). A few times with suspension potentiometers and once a gearbox shifter barrel.

I've also had cases with strain guage based sensors. Once with a wheel force tranducer and once with a shifter loadcell.

All cases were a stuffed sensor or cabling. I've never had a problem that was pinpointed to an EMF interference. Though that could be because the stuff I work on has a bandwidth several order of magnitude lower than the EMF range.
Not the engineer at Force India

gruntguru
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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If you are looking for EM interference in an F1 car, look no further than the power electronics. You have two high speed, high power motor/generators both operating with widely varying speed and power.
je suis charlie

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Big Tea
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:22 am
If you are looking for EM interference in an F1 car, look no further than the power electronics. You have two high speed, high power motor/generators both operating with widely varying speed and power.
Would they not be in place on the test bed and known?
Testing on rigs is what the tester includes, on a track it is not always the same thing.
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Nonserviam85
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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The main problem is that HV DC magnetic fields are extremely difficult to shield and the most well-known applications will not be suitable for an F1 car (weight, materials, space constraints).

Skippon
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Near field high current switches = motor and its inverter are pretty bad too!!

Skippon
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Oh and the ECU is probably located in the tub/sidepod so all those rear sensors have to run past the MGU-K

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nzjrs
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Surely they must be running digital output sensors in part, or where concerned about certain types of interference?

Are F1 cars arcitected like road cars with a big dirty canbus everywhere or is it analog sensors and cabling back to a main control unit / DAQ?

Nonserviam85
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Don't forget the HV DC cabling from the battery to/form the MGU-H and MGU-K. I expect the current magnitude to be high due to the high power converters and consequently they will have rapidly changing DC Magnetic Fields due to the fluctuating current flow. Also, the DC current will include high frequency harmonics from the converters, all combined a nightmare for EMC.

ENGINE TUNER
ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:01 pm
Don't forget the HV DC cabling from the battery to/form the MGU-H and MGU-K. I expect the current magnitude to be high due to the high power converters and consequently they will have rapidly changing DC Magnetic Fields due to the fluctuating current flow. Also, the DC current will include high frequency harmonics from the converters, all combined a nightmare for EMC.
Aren't both mgu's AC motors? With the control electronics sitting on top of the battery pack, so the long cables to the mguk and mguh would be running AC current.

Nonserviam85
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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Not ideal as you would need more cabling for 3 phase AC currents.

TribesMan
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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From Wikipedia:
As compared to a single-phase AC power supply that uses two conductors (phase and neutral), a three-phase supply with no neutral and the same phase-to-ground voltage and current capacity per phase can transmit three times as much power using just 1.5 times as many wires (i.e., three instead of two). Thus, the ratio of capacity to conductor material is doubled.[4] The ratio of capacity to conductor material increases to 3:1 with an ungrounded three-phase and center-grounded single-phase system (or 2.25:1 if both employ grounds of the same gauge as the conductors).

piast9
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Re: Electrical Noise in F1

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I am an electronic engineer but without any serious automotive background. I can think of several issues that may be caused by the vibrations which might be described as "electrical noise" which may influence the sensors performance:
- just contact at connectors issues,
- any deflection-based sensor (for example strain sensor, pressure sensor, acceleration sensor) may vibrate in one of its natural resonance frequency distorting actual reading,
- parasitic capacitance changes due to the wiring loom vibrations (possibly again at some resonance frequency amplifying the vibrations) which may also result in the parasitic current flow if there is a voltage difference between the wires,
- parasitic piezoelectric, piezoresistive or triboelectric effect in the sensor, electronic components or wiring which distort sensor's readout.
I think the last two are highly unlikely as I think the effects would be quite weak and would affect small analogue signals and I suspect that today each sensor in F1 has digital interface and signals in the wiring looms are digital only and as such are much more immune to noise.