How does F1's PU quali mode obtain more power?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: How does F1's PU quali mode obtain more power?

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the 1954 SAE paper 'Development of the Turbocompound engine' by Wiegand and Eichberg
https://www.jstor.org/stable/44547322?seq=1

iirc it includes ....
energy balance diagrams for takeoff and sea level endurance - revelatory regarding fuel chemistry behaviour

https://forum.rotaryeng.net/articles/old-webpage
has the article 'TurboCompounding the Rotary' (containing energy balance diagrams from W & E ?)
I disagree with the author's conclusions re the rotary - the 'port loss' is a physics expansion problem not a port problem

(TO SELF - it shows 9.5% power gain by recovery in sea level cruise)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: How does F1's PU quali mode obtain more power?

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:39 pm
‘Turbosupercharger system’ As to the possible energy recovery by the exhaust turbine reference should be made to:- Facts about the Wright turbocompound Oct 1956 engineering department Curtiss-Wright corporation. Wright aeronautical division Woods-ridge. New Jersey USA. (pdf file).

Mod edit to add link:
http://www.enginehistory.org/Piston/Wri ... CFacts.pdf
P7, paragraph 2 explicitly states that the recovery turbine is geared to the crankshaft - so what exactly are you trying to disprove?

saviour stivala
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Re: How does F1's PU quali mode obtain more power?

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Most of the time when the F1 turbo energy recovery subject comes back on discussion the Wright turbocompounding system is pushed-out by the same people. The Wright turbocompounding system is a totally different system from the turbo energy recovery system including the turbosupercharging system used by F1. The real scope of this push-out cannot be a genuine technical comparison of the two totally different systems, there might also pops-up the odd person not agreeing even with PDF technical experts involved reports or part of it but more like ‘grandiloquence/high-sounding but meaningless language/the $20 word.
Reading the ‘technical PDF file about the Wright turbocompounding system’ clearly uncovers the totally different systems from that used by F1 turbo energy recovery and turbosupercharging systems. It explains what is possible and what is not with the two different systems (wright turbocompounding and turbosupercharging).
Unlike the use in F1, the three exhaust energy recovery turbines of the Wright turbocompound system were directly geared to the crankshaft through a fluid coupling.
The Wright supercharger (compressor) pressuring the cylinders, was driven direct from the crankshaft (and not by an exhaust gas turbine) through a two speed (primary and secondary gear train ) planetary gear system. (13.5 inch diameter impellor, low speed 6.45 times crankshaft RPM and high speed 8.67 times crankshaft RPM.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Re: How does F1's PU quali mode obtain more power?

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:58 pm
Most of the time when the F1 turbo energy recovery subject comes back on discussion the Wright turbocompounding system is pushed-out by the same people. The Wright turbocompounding system is a totally different system from the turbo energy recovery system including the turbosupercharging system used by F1. The real scope of this push-out cannot be a genuine technical comparison of the two totally different systems, there might also pops-up the odd person not agreeing even with PDF technical experts involved reports or part of it but more like ‘grandiloquence/high-sounding but meaningless language/the $20 word.
Reading the ‘technical PDF file about the Wright turbocompounding system’ clearly uncovers the totally different systems from that used by F1 turbo energy recovery and turbosupercharging systems. It explains what is possible and what is not with the two different systems (wright turbocompounding and turbosupercharging).
Unlike the use in F1, the three exhaust energy recovery turbines of the Wright turbocompound system were directly geared to the crankshaft through a fluid coupling.
The Wright supercharger (compressor) pressuring the cylinders, was driven direct from the crankshaft (and not by an exhaust gas turbine) through a two speed (primary and secondary gear train ) planetary gear system. (13.5 inch diameter impellor, low speed 6.45 times crankshaft RPM and high speed 8.67 times crankshaft RPM.
But GG has already addressed these points in his post. I'll just quote was he said since there's nothing to add to it really. I've bolded the part that you seem to struggle with.

I suggest you take some time to understand what he meant and why it is a valid comparison, otherwise it will turn into another one of your useless circular discussions such as peak power RPM and the MGUK harvesting.
gruntguru wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:50 pm
You are conflating different concepts which are in fact independent. The flow path of mechanical power has nothing to do with the turbine type. The Wright compound system has many similarities to a turbocharger system in fact the only thing that disqualifies it as a "turbocharger" is the fact that both turbine and compressor are connected to the crankshaft. If the Wright TC is run at an operating point where turbine power equals compressor power, the overall effect is identical to a turbocharger.

Turbine type - whether reaction or impulse - is a separate issue. Modern turbocharged engines with less than 4 cylinders per turbine entry are a mix of the two types and the exhaust header is designed to deliver blowdown pulses all the way to the turbine nozzle. This system significantly reduces average pressure in the header without loss of turbine power.

Whether it is possible in the current F1 engines, to convert any blowdown energy to turbine power, while maintaining atmospheric pressure during the exhaust stroke is still unclear. It would certainly be an advantage - requiring less electrical energy to operate in Electric Supercharger mode and therefore permitting its use for more time each lap.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: How does F1's PU quali mode obtain more power?

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There should be no doubt that unless one (not my intention) bows his head to this on here ‘grandiloquence’ type of behaviour this discussion like many before it will turn or better put. Will be forced into another useless discussion such as the ‘max power speed’ and the ‘MGU-K harvesting’.
But I have no intention to let things repeat themselves, I will just let those following/reading us read the Wright turbocompounding system PDF paper and decide for themselves as to what is what and what is possible and not possible with the two different systems in discussion.

NL_Fer
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Re: How does F1's PU quali mode obtain more power?

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Xwang wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:09 pm
How does F1's PU quali mode obtain more power?
Why is the same power rate not always available?
Let's speak about it!
1. More engine wear.
These engine can run with a little amount of knock. They can allow for some more knock, but this increases wear and so can only be used for a few moments of a single lap.

2. More heat.
The cooling systems are minimal to keep weight and drag low. A single lap @ full power generates so much heat, the car needs to cool down the lap after.

3. Turbo as electric supercharger.
Use the MGU-H to drive the turbo on battery power, with wastegates open. Together with MGU-K this mode draws 200kw from the battery. Even during a single lap, this mode can only be used for a limited amount of seconds. Most usefull is af the start of a straight part, when the driver hits full throttle.

4. Hot blow the turbocharger.
During partial throttle, if the ignition timing is set less early, more air and fuel generate more exhaust gasses. These can be used to drive the MGU-H and recharge the battery. Ofcourse this also generates more heat.

5. SOC
State of charge of the battery. Because it is a single lap. The drivers can start the lap with a full battery and end with a empty one.

As u can see, most is about trickery with the ERS system and how to charge and deploy the battery. Only little to just a higher power mode.