Hydrogen Fuelcell Formula

[Just_a_fan]

I was reading of a plan to use old salt caves to store the gas under pressure. The gas being retrieved from underground would run a turbine just by passing through it generating energy, then burned to run generation kit on the surface.

As the gas is being stored in a pressurised environment, presumably the energy released via the turbine could be used to help pressurise the gas in the system. Of course, it's still a net loss, but better than nothing.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think fuel cell racing is a non-starter. Hydrogen fuel cells are about 60% efficient in converting potential fuel energy to electricity; the equivalent energy to gasoline of liquid hydrogen is about four times the volume of gasoline, meaning very large tanks. Liquid hydrogen is a cryogenic liquid at a temperature of -252° C ± and must be heated to drive off gaseous hydrogen; this means a pressure tank as well as a cryogenic tank.

Bottom line, the liquid hydrogen energy equivalent of 100 kg of gasoline would be about 300 liters of hydrogen at -252° C. Since the current F1 engines approach 50% efficiency and fuel cells are about 60%... On the plus side, 300 liters of LH2 would mass about 21 kg.

That is not bad. 300 liters is about 125% the size of 55 gallon drum. Might be doable.

[NL_Fer]

I have given it another though and most comments from the f1 organization and teams are pointing at another hybrid powerunit in 2026, running a carbon-neutral fuel.

We could continue with exhaust energy recovery with current hybrid turbocharger. Or use a traditional turbocharger with an independent recovery turbine (like Porsche 919). Another option to switch a front axle brake recovery, let see how small and light f1 could built this.

OR, F1 could employ a little 50-100kw fuelcell to power the hybrid system, combined with brake recovery, this could power a 150-200kw electric motor for half a lap, comparable to current ERS. A smaller fuelcell is much cheaper and lighter, and also more comparable to the ones used in current FCEV’s. On the other side we keep a simple, less-complex ICE with a nice sound.

Manufacturers could develop the fuelcell and sub-contract the ICE to an external company like Cossworth or Gibson. Or built the ICE themselves and let the team develop the fuelcell.

Not sure if the future needs FCEV’s, but there seems to be enough interest in exploring en developing the technology.

[Jolle]

I think fuel cell racing is a non-starter. Hydrogen fuel cells are about 60% efficient in converting potential fuel energy to electricity; the equivalent energy to gasoline of liquid hydrogen is about four times the volume of gasoline, meaning very large tanks. Liquid hydrogen is a cryogenic liquid at a temperature of -252° C ± and must be heated to drive off gaseous hydrogen; this means a pressure tank as well as a cryogenic tank.

Bottom line, the liquid hydrogen energy equivalent of 100 kg of gasoline would be about 300 liters of hydrogen at -252° C. Since the current F1 engines approach 50% efficiency and fuel cells are about 60%... On the plus side, 300 liters of LH2 would mass about 21 kg.

That is not bad. 300 liters is about 125% the size of 55 gallon drum. Might be doable.

Don’t forget the massive pressure tank. For any of us who owned a car that runs on natural gas knows... bulky, heavy and potential very dangerous (you don’t want to crash it with the current F1 speeds)

[Cold Fussion]

We could continue with exhaust energy recovery with current hybrid turbocharger. Or use a traditional turbocharger with an independent recovery turbine (like Porsche 919). Another option to switch a front axle brake recovery, let see how small and light f1 could built this.Not sure if the future needs FCEV’s, but there seems to be enough interest in exploring en developing the technology.

One option I think worth exploring is having independent turbine and compressor elements. Have a much larger turbine generator unit that we have now for more recovery and an electric compressor which will keep the same engine response as the current MGU-H. The MGU-H is meant to be the most complex element of the whole PU however as separate units it should be much simpler to design and implement each element.

[Brake Horse Power]

I think F1 needs very high HP and low weight, as much as I like to, I don't think a fuel cell will provide that.

Combustion engine adds to the spectacle ánd you want gear shifts. An additional element could be to use e-fuels. Give the teams an X-ammount of electric energy from the grid and let them produce their own fuel which they run in their cars in the race. This way they will develop the whole supply chain. Put a budget cap on the manufacturing cost of the e-fuel plant to make it suitable for commercial application.
From a technical perspective very interesting, probably the racing element not so good since one can expect big differences in efficiency..

[Zynerji]

6inch jet engine spinning a generator for the 4 wheel-hub motors would sound epic at the start...

[bjpower]

Why not remove the electrical limit that they have currently. Add front wheel regen.
To offset the speed increase reduce the fuel flow limit.

The regen will be used in all cars going forward which will make it manufacturer/ road relevant.

Cars with the lightest and most efficient system will gain an advantage .

If the cars get too fast reduce the fuel flow limit again.

[Zynerji]

Why not remove the electrical limit that they have currently. Add front wheel regen.
To offset the speed increase reduce the fuel flow limit.

The regen will be used in all cars going forward which will make it manufacturer/ road relevant.

Cars with the lightest and most efficient system will gain an advantage .

If the cars get too fast reduce the fuel flow limit again.

I think the control strategies have become the un-sung "real" value to the manufacturers with the current formula. They all had a decent idea of what the mechanicals would evolve into, but I believe the software breakthroughs have been the most surprising to them. Some of the early Honda interviews (15,16,17) hinted at this blindspot, and it would make sense that the others were similarly effected.

AWD hybrid control strategies seem to be multiplicative to certain variables that control the efficiency of the hybrid drive train formula. I'm sure the manufacturers would benefit greatly from that research going forward.

[Jolle]

The problem at the moment with front axle regen motors (which I am totally onboard with) is currently that it still lacks in brake feeling compared to just disks. For a lemans car this is not a problem because it’s another type of racing, where the compromise of “able to wrench the last tenth out of it over a single lap” vs “economy over a race” is fully on the “economy” side.

[gruntguru]

The problem at the moment with front axle regen motors (which I am totally onboard with) is currently that it still lacks in brake feeling compared to just disks. For a lemans car this is not a problem because it’s another type of racing, where the compromise of “able to wrench the last tenth out of it over a single lap” vs “economy over a race” is fully on the “economy” side.

Sounds like another good opportunity for F1 to advance the state of the art.

[Jolle]

The problem at the moment with front axle regen motors (which I am totally onboard with) is currently that it still lacks in brake feeling compared to just disks. For a lemans car this is not a problem because it’s another type of racing, where the compromise of “able to wrench the last tenth out of it over a single lap” vs “economy over a race” is fully on the “economy” side.

Sounds like another good opportunity for F1 to advance the state of the art.

That’s one of the reasons I guess they have the BBW system on the rear, to iron out the lack of feeling the drivers keep feeling. Same as the K and H unit to make a big single turbo ICE smooth and responsive like a V12

[gruntguru]

Yes, and with the refinements to BBW that F1 has no-doubt achieved in solving the rear MGUK/BBW problem, I have no doubt they can extend those learnings to much higher levels of regen in a front BBW system.

The real reason it is currently rear-only is that the MGUK is primarily intended to be a MUK, not a GUK.

[Jolle]

Just imagine a road car (with a low cw) with a front re-gen so powerful that you don't need disks anymore. Even with a big heavy car you only need a smal amount of extra energy to offset the wind, rolling resistance and heat plus a bit of loss on the drive train.

bit like the "pull back to wind up" toy cars we used to play with

[wuzak]

I don't know if this is in any way relevant to this discussion: hydrogen-powered trains are being deployed in the UK and other European countries. For example:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-54350046

Why would they do such a thing?*

Surely using electricity direct from the grid would be more efficient than converting water to hydrogen by electrolysis (presumably), transporting the hydrogen to fuel up the train, and then converting it to electricity with a fuel cell.

The overall efficiency must be half of what a direct electric train would get.

*It could make sense for a freight train in the middle of nowhere USA, but for a passenger/commuter train in the UK?