Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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theblackangus
theblackangus
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Tank Traps... They should just throw tank traps out here.

T4 here is a hard issue as its part of the other layout.
If you want to use sensors how exactly do you do that, as something needs to be embeded in the track for the car to read?
If its passive how do you keep the car from registering it all the time when using the alternate layout?
Having an active sensor in the track is an upkeep and installation nightmare, especially if you are having to install with a switched configuration where there are multiple things to go wrong.
The sample rate on the on-car sensor will have to be very high/sensitive to stop false positives, as well as having to be combined with some other system to understand the location of the car on the layout along with the sensor data to prevent false positives on different configurations.
Can it be done.. yes, but its expensive, maintenance heavy and not fool proof.
Its not like race control lacks the cameras and eyes to do the same and save on the money/complexity.

You can't really do anything to the off track area as its "on track" for the other layout use.

This really only leaves doing something to the fully off track area where people are re-joining the layout used for the race.
Don't really want to put anything slick here that would toss a car out of control back on the track, nor a big bump as that would do the same.
The small amount of area there means even the most abrasive paint wouldn't likely detract alot.

KISS just points to having race control just do their job and follow the rules. Give penalties for cars running off the track t consistently. All the rest of the solutions are just trying to take the problem out of race controls hands where its their job in the 1st place.

sp8472
sp8472
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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If you go outside the white lines ‘leave the track’ and can continue on in the race you have gained a lasting advantage, simply because you are still in the race. Every white line on every corner should be considered the same as a concrete wall. Even those corners where there is no lap time advantage gained by going outside the lines. If you are able to keep racing you have gained advantage.

The white lines designate the limit if the track. If you play outside this area you are no longer playing on the track. The football pitch example keeps coming to mind. There is no question if you go past the white line if you ‘gained an advantage’ or not. You can’t cross the line but then stop for a second, have to slow down or pass the ball backwards. Your out of bounds and that’s that.

I do not suggest that we should have brick walls like street circuits at every venue, but the white lines should be treated with the same respect as a concrete wall, and incur a penalty for disrespecting it on every corner of the track.

Technology is developed enough to deal with this. Have a ‘passive’ strip on the white line and house the detecting equipment on the car. That way there is disruption for other Motorsport at the same venue.

Apply penalties similar to those discussed in this tread such as loss of DRS or ERS for periods. But apply in every situation. If you get pushed off the track you get a penalty. You should not be in that position, or if not you fault the other driver gets a bigger penalty for not giving the space required. Be thankful your car is still in the race and you are not in the back of an ambulance. I don’t see this as a disadvantage. You are still in the race.

It has been said before. These are the best drivers in the world. They can keep it on the track. They will push every limit if it can give them a tenth of a second. Punish them by a second and they will all suddenly stop it by the next race. I don’t blame them. Teams spend millions of dollars to gain a tenth. If you can gain that same amount just by running side you are stupid not to.


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NathanOlder
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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I dont think using other sports is a good example, take football for example. Drivers unable to stay inside the white lines is not as simple as it seems. Remember they are looking for every single thousandth of a second. If the miss the apex or carry too much speed, theres nothing you can do about staying inside track limits. Its no good saying drivers cant stick to the rules. The same can be said about pretty much every sport. Footballers make many fouls etc.

For me, all thats needed here is the Turn 4 in Bahrain needs re-profiling. Make it a bigger stop, tighter bend. Like turn 1. No one runs wide to gain an advantage at turn 1. Just profile the corner the same way.
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DChemTech
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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But the issue is not just Bahrain T4. The issue is that every race, there is 'selective policing' in only those corners where the stewards think drivers can gain an advantage, and sometimes that selection seems off. Bahrain T4 is a symptom of that underlying problem, and a symptom that was particularly notable because it may have influenced the outcome of the race in this case. And another issue is where to draw the difference between overtaking and non-overtaking situations. Although I cannot recall the exact race, an event comes to mind where one of the Mercedes (or perhaps both) completely missed a corner after the start, passed over the grass and rejoined the track around a second ahead of the pack. Despite dirty tires, the advantage was clearly lasting, too. If this would have resulted in an overtake, no doubt it would mean giving the position back. But since there was no overtake, it was no issue? That really does bother me.

I agree, in soccer there's quite a lot out-of-field plays and we don't want a 'free throw' every time that happens. That doesn't mean we cannot do better and more consistent than is currently the case in F1. A few warnings before handing out penalties are fine, but consistent, deliberate abuse of track limits should not be possible, and also incidental abuses that do produce a substantial lasting advantage should be looked at.

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RZS10
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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landmines

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hUirEYExbN
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Sirens.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Snipers. Go off track and you have a tyre shot out. And if any driver whines too much on the radio, well, we can find out how good those helmets really are... mhawhahahah! :lol:
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

TimW
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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RZS10 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:56 pm
landmines
Tiny landmines are definitely the best idea, they add to the spectacle so Liberty must love it.
Whenever viewer numbers decline, just use bigger landmines to increase them.

Xwang
Xwang
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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TimW wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:00 am
RZS10 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:56 pm
landmines
Tiny landmines are definitely the best idea, they add to the spectacle so Liberty must love it.
Whenever viewer numbers decline, just use bigger landmines to increase them.
Deathrace F1 ?
I'm still learning English so please excuse me if my English is not good enough and feel free to correct me via PM if you want.

DChemTech
DChemTech
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Xwang wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:21 am
TimW wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:00 am
RZS10 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:56 pm
landmines
Tiny landmines are definitely the best idea, they add to the spectacle so Liberty must love it.
Whenever viewer numbers decline, just use bigger landmines to increase them.
Deathrace F1 ?
F1 @ Rainbow Road

XRayF1
XRayF1
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Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:08 am

Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Just errect barriers at crucial turns as tall as the tire.
Monaco-style but lower. Singapore. Etc.
Drivers may be able to touch them slightly, everything else will (mostly) result to major damage to the car.
Secondly, Drivers will not be able to drive around the opponent on the outside and claim "being pushed off track".

And as to safety, Drivers will take care of it - they will immediately recognise if an overtake will have a chance to succeed knowing a barrier being on the other side. See Monaco/Singapore.
This discussion of track limits and overstepping them originated from an obscure safety consideration when Drivers did not apply common sense but relied on others to take care of safety.
Larger run off sections, lower curbs, asf.

Take a look at what happened in 2017(?) at the Austrian GP, when new curbs were introduced and the Mercs had destroyed wishbones thus had to stay off such track limits, other teams learning staying on track the same.

Find a way that overstepping the boundaries cause irreparable damage to the car, and not only loosing some momentum/time.
The loss of one sec is inconsequential when staying in the GP and being able to overtake by strategy.

BrunoH
BrunoH
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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well maybe the sprinklers idea on the outside wold be a good ideia... if its wet they aind gonna go there

Jolle
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Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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XRayF1 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:19 pm
Just errect barriers at crucial turns as tall as the tire.
Monaco-style but lower. Singapore. Etc.
Drivers may be able to touch them slightly, everything else will (mostly) result to major damage to the car.
Secondly, Drivers will not be able to drive around the opponent on the outside and claim "being pushed off track".

And as to safety, Drivers will take care of it - they will immediately recognise if an overtake will have a chance to succeed knowing a barrier being on the other side. See Monaco/Singapore.
This discussion of track limits and overstepping them originated from an obscure safety consideration when Drivers did not apply common sense but relied on others to take care of safety.
Larger run off sections, lower curbs, asf.

Take a look at what happened in 2017(?) at the Austrian GP, when new curbs were introduced and the Mercs had destroyed wishbones thus had to stay off such track limits, other teams learning staying on track the same.

Find a way that overstepping the boundaries cause irreparable damage to the car, and not only loosing some momentum/time.
The loss of one sec is inconsequential when staying in the GP and being able to overtake by strategy.
Isn’t Monaco critisized for being a boring race because no one dares an overtake?

Missing a corner must carry some kind of penalty, but a DNF (with extra safety cars etc) makes every race boring as hell. No one dares to take any risks.

XRayF1
XRayF1
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Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:08 am

Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:22 pm
XRayF1 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:19 pm
Just errect barriers at crucial turns as tall as the tire.
Monaco-style but lower. Singapore. Etc.
Drivers may be able to touch them slightly, everything else will (mostly) result to major damage to the car.
Secondly, Drivers will not be able to drive around the opponent on the outside and claim "being pushed off track".

And as to safety, Drivers will take care of it - they will immediately recognise if an overtake will have a chance to succeed knowing a barrier being on the other side. See Monaco/Singapore.
This discussion of track limits and overstepping them originated from an obscure safety consideration when Drivers did not apply common sense but relied on others to take care of safety.
Larger run off sections, lower curbs, asf.

Take a look at what happened in 2017(?) at the Austrian GP, when new curbs were introduced and the Mercs had destroyed wishbones thus had to stay off such track limits, other teams learning staying on track the same.

Find a way that overstepping the boundaries cause irreparable damage to the car, and not only loosing some momentum/time.
The loss of one sec is inconsequential when staying in the GP and being able to overtake by strategy.
Isn’t Monaco critisized for being a boring race because no one dares an overtake?

Missing a corner must carry some kind of penalty, but a DNF (with extra safety cars etc) makes every race boring as hell. No one dares to take any risks.
Well, not everywhere, but at some points.
This is the reason why I said "Monaco-style" (and not "like Monaco") and mentioned "at crucial/critical" turns.
I would not want any GPs to be 'encased' in barriers.

I would not change, say La Source at Spa, but Turn 4 Bahrain was always where Drivers extended the track as they saw fit.

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Stu
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Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: Track Limits - No Track Limits - Hybrid Track Limits

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XRayF1 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:31 am
Jolle wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:22 pm
XRayF1 wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:19 pm
Just errect barriers at crucial turns as tall as the tire.
Monaco-style but lower. Singapore. Etc.
Drivers may be able to touch them slightly, everything else will (mostly) result to major damage to the car.
Secondly, Drivers will not be able to drive around the opponent on the outside and claim "being pushed off track".

And as to safety, Drivers will take care of it - they will immediately recognise if an overtake will have a chance to succeed knowing a barrier being on the other side. See Monaco/Singapore.
This discussion of track limits and overstepping them originated from an obscure safety consideration when Drivers did not apply common sense but relied on others to take care of safety.
Larger run off sections, lower curbs, asf.

Take a look at what happened in 2017(?) at the Austrian GP, when new curbs were introduced and the Mercs had destroyed wishbones thus had to stay off such track limits, other teams learning staying on track the same.

Find a way that overstepping the boundaries cause irreparable damage to the car, and not only loosing some momentum/time.
The loss of one sec is inconsequential when staying in the GP and being able to overtake by strategy.
Isn’t Monaco critisized for being a boring race because no one dares an overtake?

Missing a corner must carry some kind of penalty, but a DNF (with extra safety cars etc) makes every race boring as hell. No one dares to take any risks.
Well, not everywhere, but at some points.
This is the reason why I said "Monaco-style" (and not "like Monaco") and mentioned "at crucial/critical" turns.
I would not want any GPs to be 'encased' in barriers.

I would not change, say La Source at Spa, but Turn 4 Bahrain was always where Drivers extended the track as they saw fit.
Back in the late 80’s/early nineties La Source was one place that they used to exceed the track limit on (at the exit), first person that I recall doing it regularly was Mansell; it totally changed the nature of the corner AND the run down to Eau Rouge and gave a huge advantage.
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...