2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:52 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:20 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:07 am

Gutted that then when Aitken neutralized the race that Mercedes completely and utterly destroyed their race by doing pitstops that never, never, never ever were ever even remotely neccesary and would put them out of position anyway,
and then the chaos was complete. Yeah, Bottas was on the recieving end there too, as both George and Valterri got shafted by their own team but atleast that makes it still a bit 'fair'.


The pit stop were 100% neccesary. Bottas in the end didnt change his tyres, and he went backwards. And it wouldnt put them out of position. When they double stacked, they had over 30 seconds to the car behind. If the cars behind them all pit, and they stay out, they are screwed. They had to pit, they had the time. They wouldn't be out of position, and they would be at the front with a decent set of medium tyres. It was 100% the right call to make.
Look at the example of Perez Vs Sainz/Ric. Perez pit for his only stop and went on new hards, on lap 47. Both Sainz and Ric pitted on lap 55 for Medium (Sai) and Hard (Ric). Their tyres were 8 laps younger than Perez when the race restarted on 69.
From lap 69 to 79, Perez was doing high 0:56s whereas Sainz and Ric were doing high 0:58s and then moved to 0:57s.
From lap 79 to the end, Perez, Sainz and Ric, all were doing low 0:57s.

Unlike Perez, who was initially running in the mid field and making progress while burning his tyres before SC, both Mercedes were running in clear air, managing their tyres well.

So there is nothing to say, if Mercedes wouldn't have stopped in SC, they would have screwed. Without the stop too, Mercedes probably had handy pace to handle cars behind with fresh rubber.
Yeah it just depends how fresh the rubber was. As they were the first ones round to the pit lane, they dont have the luxury of knowing what others were doing. Merc had the gap to choose Track position and newer tyres. The blunder in the pitlane cost them.
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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Juzh wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:57 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:19 am
LM10 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:17 pm
To the people telling Mercedes can't win without Lewis - what are you trying to do? Those claims sound stupid and you're belittling Russell's exceptional performance today. What a shame.

He actually was on his way to easily win that. If it was not for the most stupid pit stop I've seen in a while. Why would you change some fresh Hards with less than half of the race remaining?
Lewis would not have come in and the puncture would not have affect Lewis. He already won a race on three wheels. So a slow puncture is nothing for him. Yes. I am dead serious.
You've lost it completely now mate. Seek some help.
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:20 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:07 am

Gutted that then when Aitken neutralized the race that Mercedes completely and utterly destroyed their race by doing pitstops that never, never, never ever were ever even remotely neccesary and would put them out of position anyway,
and then the chaos was complete. Yeah, Bottas was on the recieving end there too, as both George and Valterri got shafted by their own team but atleast that makes it still a bit 'fair'.


The pit stop were 100% neccesary. Bottas in the end didnt change his tyres, and he went backwards. And it wouldnt put them out of position. When they double stacked, they had over 30 seconds to the car behind. If the cars behind them all pit, and they stay out, they are screwed. They had to pit, they had the time. They wouldn't be out of position, and they would be at the front with a decent set of medium tyres. It was 100% the right call to make.
Yeah this is my view too. They couldn't risk it if the cars behind took on new rubber and gained a large advantage. Especially when the field gets bunched up by the SC. Unfortunately, they botched the stops. Pretty much a hero or zero moment for the team.

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Sieper
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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DChemTech wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:26 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:15 am
Bottas didn’t get new hards at all!!

They pitted him right after they sound out Russell on some of Bottas’ yellow tires. So they started to fit Bottas his yellow set (which already took long) then realized the error, removed the yellows and refitted the whites he just came in on and had him finish the race on them.

Bottas too was royally screwed. If he had stayed out instead of this pit stop cock up he would have won.

Russell is better then Bottas (Ofcourse) but he too was done badly by the team mistake.
I don't think he would have won if he stayed out. As you said, he didn't get new tires, and due to that, he wasn't doing all too well after the restart. Why would he have fared better if he didn't stop - he would be in front, but on the same crappy tires. Sure, he probably wouldn't fall back as much as he did now, but I doubt he'd win.
well, he would have been in front of Perez (with 2 laps younger tires) and in a 2020 merc versus a 2019,75 merc. Perez is a better driver then Bottas but I think he wouldn't have risked it.

they pit stop was the right call, but they messed up royally. Not only for Russell, but also very much for Bottas. I dont rate Bottas very highly (just to be clear). Never have and never will.
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:52 am
DChemTech wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:26 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:15 am
Bottas didn’t get new hards at all!!

They pitted him right after they sound out Russell on some of Bottas’ yellow tires. So they started to fit Bottas his yellow set (which already took long) then realized the error, removed the yellows and refitted the whites he just came in on and had him finish the race on them.

Bottas too was royally screwed. If he had stayed out instead of this pit stop cock up he would have won.

Russell is better then Bottas (Ofcourse) but he too was done badly by the team mistake.
I don't think he would have won if he stayed out. As you said, he didn't get new tires, and due to that, he wasn't doing all too well after the restart. Why would he have fared better if he didn't stop - he would be in front, but on the same crappy tires. Sure, he probably wouldn't fall back as much as he did now, but I doubt he'd win.
well, he would have been in front of Perez (with 2 laps younger tires) and in a 2020 merc versus a 2019,75 merc. Perez is a better driver then Bottas but I think he wouldn't have risked it.

they pit stop was the right call, but they messed up royally. Not only for Russell, but also very much for Bottas. I dont rate Bottas very highly (just to be clear). Never have and never will.
Perez had older tires, true, but he managed them amazingly - as he quite often does. Bottas on the other hand seemed to be quite off after the restart, making some mistakes. Even if Sergio wouldn't actively attack, it's quite possible an opportunity would have presented itself due to Bottas's poor performance under pressure. And, just to be clear too, I was quite in favor of Bottas moving to Mercedes when he did - he did a fine job at Williams while the decline at that team already started, and generally I don't rate Bottas too poorly (he's no Hamilton or Rosberg, but he's the right man for the job he has now). But last few races... well, not really something that enriches his portfolio.

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Wouter
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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The Power of Honda!

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Zynerji
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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I hope Lewis is fully recovered in time for Abu Dhabi, but decides to "rest a bit more", and let's Russell have another crack at Valterri.

In a way, the best mind-game Hamilton could play with Bottas would be sending Valterri into the off-season dealing with the implications of getting thrashed by George in front of millions of fans and pundits at the finale...

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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I don't see Hamilton making it back in time. Especially if he's not feeling 95-100% better right now.

Whether he's even allowed into the country or not and can produce a negative test, it doesn't sound like he's faring all that well and he's got a bit of a dose.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:57 pm
I don't see Hamilton making it back in time. Especially if he's not feeling 95-100% better right now.

Whether he's even allowed into the country or not and can produce a negative test, it doesn't sound like he's faring all that well and he's got a bit of a dose.
I guess its become a bit easy to assume those in tip-top fitness breeze through this infection.

Get well soon, Lewis!

LM10
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:52 pm
I hope Lewis is fully recovered in time for Abu Dhabi, but decides to "rest a bit more", and let's Russell have another crack at Valterri.

In a way, the best mind-game Hamilton could play with Bottas would be sending Valterri into the off-season dealing with the implications of getting thrashed by George in front of millions of fans and pundits at the finale...
Hamilton doesn't need to play mind-games with Bottas to beat him. Valtteri is not a threat for him and has never been.

By giving Bottas the seat Mercedes robs us of something which would be really interesting to watch and could turn the races into more exciting events. Instead we'll watch yet another season of an unrivaled Lewis yawning his way to the chequered flag.

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AMG.Tzan
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Why is everyone talking about the Mercedes's f*cked up pit stop as the cause for Russell losing the race since it was the puncture that really cost Russell the win??

Even if Mercedes hadn't pitted, the puncture was probably caused because of Russell going over something (debris maybe) which he would have done again even if he didn't pit, so it would still have destroyed Russell's race...
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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Fulcrum wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:09 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:35 am
Love the excuses from Bottas and some people over here about "him matching Russell" or being quicker in the second stint but "unable to pass" because of the characteristics of the Merc!

Wake up and smell the coffee. Russell beat Bottas in an alien car instead of being trumped by him. And, he passed Bottas in the same car that is apparently unable to pass in traffic.
I wrote a long post about Bottas somewhere, probably that Hamilton thread (how many championships/wins he'd get and when), and my opinion has not changed.

Outside of Kovalainen, Bottas is the weakest F1 teammate Hamilton has ever had. To be fair, Hamilton has had an excellent collection of teammates, so Bottas is by no means a bad driver.

However, Bottas is flattered by the car, which is typically on rails all weekend. Whenever the car is slightly more difficult to drive, e.g. 2018, he's nowhere. Hamilton won 11 races while Bottas won 0.

Bottas' qualifying pace, while good, usually proves to be better than what he can achieve over a race distance. My guess is, Hamilton has such a comfortable margin over Bottas he can afford to skew his setup to preference the race. He gives Bottas 1-2 tenths in qualifying to give himself 3-4 tenths per lap in the second half of race stints.

Russell did an amazing job this weekend, but the true test will come in Abu Dhabi, if Hamilton does not return. A much more representative track, and he'll have to manage the circumstances and emotions of this race.
Pretty much spot on. I also expect Bottas to win Abu Dhabi.
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notsofast
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Russell may have been robbed of a win, but he was certainly given the opportunity to demonstrate whatever skills he listed in his PowerPoint presentation. :-)

On a more serious note, why couldn't he fit in Lewis' car? Aren't the dimensions of the survival cell standardized? Couldn't he have just taken his fitted Williams seat and stuffed it in the Mercedes?

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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notsofast wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:31 pm
Russell may have been robbed of a win, but he was certainly given the opportunity to demonstrate whatever skills he listed in his PowerPoint presentation. :-)

On a more serious note, why couldn't he fit in Lewis' car? Aren't the dimensions of the survival cell standardized? Couldn't he have just taken his fitted Williams seat and stuffed it in the Mercedes?
There are rules like the minimum size of the cockpit opening and the cros sections. Seats are not interchangeable between seats. If Russell would move to merc any time soon, they have to make the cockpit a bit larger in W12/13

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:52 pm
I hope Lewis is fully recovered in time for Abu Dhabi, but decides to "rest a bit more", and let's Russell have another crack at Valterri.

In a way, the best mind-game Hamilton could play with Bottas would be sending Valterri into the off-season dealing with the implications of getting thrashed by George in front of millions of fans and pundits at the finale...
I think he will be back he made a big step yesterday and there is still plenty of days to go but we will find out in due course.