2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
wuzak
373
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

If they use the same size ES as now (and 4MJ maximum usage), 350kW could be deployed for 11s.

Nowhere near as much time as 120kW deployment would last (33s), let alone the deployment available with MGUH (50s+?).

mzso
mzso
50
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

gruntguru wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:56 am
Nope - 50% includes the MGUH.
Sure? Mercedes kept saying the engine had 50% thermal efficiency. Not the PU with H recovery.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
38
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Yes. mercedes always said 'the engine' reached 50% TE. Or always given that impression.
Last edited by saviour stivala on Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bill
Bill
9
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

more focus on electrification does not make sense when we have formula e and wec series.f1 should have made regulation that differentiate themself from those .keeping the current pu was better limiting areas of development for cost sake would have made sense ,these is just change for change sake.

soco3594
soco3594
0
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:20 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Holm86 wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:56 pm
Yes, but I don't see how they should sound better? It's the same configuration, and same RPM range. Might be slightly louder due to the lack of MGUH, but I doubt they'll sound any better
Mechanical anti-lag!

gruntguru
gruntguru
545
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mzso wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:28 am
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:56 am
Nope - 50% includes the MGUH.
Sure? Mercedes kept saying the engine had 50% thermal efficiency. Not the PU with H recovery.
50% TE is achieved in "self sustaining mode" ie the ICE + GUH + MUK and no energy flow to or from the ES.

The heat "Engine" is an ICE combining a reciprocating Otto cycle engine with a centrifugal supercharger and radial inflow exhaust turbine. Work from the turbine is used to directly drive the compressor with surplus turbine power returned to the crankshaft (electrically in this case).
je suis charlie

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
589
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mzso wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:28 am
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:56 am
Nope - 50% includes the MGUH.
Sure? Mercedes kept saying the engine had 50% thermal efficiency. Not the PU with H recovery.
afaik we believe they meant 50% sustained from the PU
ie crankshaft power output combined with what power the MU-K makes from what the GU-H can generate sustainably

Wright Turbo-Compound aero engines mechanical exhaust turbine recovery added c. 10% to crankshaft power - in cruise
shown here 10 years ago

User avatar
Blackout
1247
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:12 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:04 am
vorticism wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:49 pm
Has the fuel flow rate been announced?
The F1TV video says 70-80 kg/hr. :?:

tpe wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:36 pm
Next step is to actually call for tenders for the block part of the engine.
Is that speculation, or is it confirmed that the bottom-end of the engine will be a spec part from Gibson or Mechachrome or somebody? :?: If so, that would be logical given the competition is meant to be on the electrical side.

The FIA are saying something about standardised crankshaft, pistons etc but it seems a bit vague. Does that mean fully spec, or rather just open source, common design but made by the individual manufacturers?
:?:

As far as I understand, the engines will be more dimensionally prescribed, especially the lower part, while the standardisation only concerns injectors and sensors...

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech
Image

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
61
Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Blackout wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:18 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:04 am
vorticism wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:49 pm
Has the fuel flow rate been announced?
The F1TV video says 70-80 kg/hr. :?:

tpe wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:36 pm
Next step is to actually call for tenders for the block part of the engine.
Is that speculation, or is it confirmed that the bottom-end of the engine will be a spec part from Gibson or Mechachrome or somebody? :?: If so, that would be logical given the competition is meant to be on the electrical side.

The FIA are saying something about standardised crankshaft, pistons etc but it seems a bit vague. Does that mean fully spec, or rather just open source, common design but made by the individual manufacturers?
:?:

As far as I understand, the engines will be more dimensionally prescribed, especially the lower part, while the standardisation only concerns injectors and sensors...

https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FaTVnKPWAAg ... name=large
IMHO, what that is mistakenly saying is that the standardised parts are irrelevant to progress of the ICE, rubbish.
There is nothing there that cannot be addressed by the cost cap, why restrict development.
All components are related to efficiency and progress.
One hand tied behind the back for the designers.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
589
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

currently the 8 speed instant shift 'seamless' transmissions are a hidden helper to the electrical side
accomodating on its input side increased inertia due to the MGU-K and its drive gear ratio .... and ....
giving to the MGU-K near-constant high rpm (voltage) and near-constant low torque (current), motoring or generating
apparently this hidden help will only increase with the much bigger K machine and smaller ICE

K inertia and response might be helped with eg 2 or 3 K present-size machines rather than a single 350 kW-size machine
conceivably multiple machines (being commonly slaved to the crankshaft) could have a common CE unit

but increased electrification should enable transmission with .....
continuous variability via K(s) and the ICE being sum/difference connections to a Prius-concept planetary transmission
that wouldn't sound revvy or racy though

.poz
.poz
38
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:44 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

question for engineers:

AFAIK one of the most difficult thing to setup on actual PU is turbo-compressor-MGUH, because it does two different things, harvesting energy and feeding the ICE with the optimal flow of air at the optimal pressure

is complex to design and tricky to setup with software

a design with turbo and compressor not mechanically linked and with a MGUH on the turbo and a electrically powered compressor is easier to project and setup ?

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
92
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:51 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

These regulations look like they'll produce power units very similar in performance and philosophy to the old LMP1 regulations. I imagine the way the cars are driven will look more LMP than F1 as well.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
589
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

.poz wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:38 pm
question for engineers:
.. a design with turbo and compressor not mechanically linked and with a MGUH on the turbo and a electrically powered compressor is easier to project and setup ?
that's saying have the turbine and compressor (electrically) linked whenever a link is needed
that would need 2 electrical machines not 1 and 2 CUs not 1
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tpe
tpe
-2
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:24 pm
Location: Greece

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:04 am
vorticism wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:49 pm
Has the fuel flow rate been announced?
The F1TV video says 70-80 kg/hr. :?:

tpe wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:36 pm
Next step is to actually call for tenders for the block part of the engine.
Is that speculation, or is it confirmed that the bottom-end of the engine will be a spec part from Gibson or Mechachrome or somebody? :?: If so, that would be logical given the competition is meant to be on the electrical side.

The FIA are saying something about standardised crankshaft, pistons etc but it seems a bit vague. Does that mean fully spec, or rather just open source, common design but made by the individual manufacturers?
Actually it's a sarcasm, at least for now.
Reflects my dissatisfaction with those rules, just because they want to please VW.

User avatar
Zynerji
107
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

How is it still F1 if they delete basic cool stuff like VLIM?!?!?!

Push the envelope, watch it bend.