2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[johnny comelately]

Regulations specify that fuel energy flow rate must not exceed 3000MJ/h, which equates to approximately 65kg/h, compared to the current fuel flow rate of 100kg/h.

Hard to match that with 1600cc, any mention of engine size?

Same as now, V6 1.6L

Maybe 7000RPM It is getting more unexciting all the time....need more info

[mzso]

So, on this basis, the ICE is (unforunately) "needed" to achieve the 1000hp (otherwise you would need a 2000+kg battery to match 100kg of petrol which is not practical) but the automakers want the competition to be on the electrical size not on the legacy ICE side.

Not the case in my opinion. A fuel cell would allow for dumping all ICE related stuff. Also much of the battery. It would also be a worthy technology to develop on its own.

[djos]

So, on this basis, the ICE is (unforunately) "needed" to achieve the 1000hp (otherwise you would need a 2000+kg battery to match 100kg of petrol which is not practical) but the automakers want the competition to be on the electrical size not on the legacy ICE side.

Not the case in my opinion. A fuel cell would allow for dumping all ICE related stuff. Also much of the battery. It would also be a worthy technology to develop on its own.

FCV tech is even less space efficient than pure EV tech!

Just look at the latest Toyota Mirai, it has hydrogen storage tanks, the fuel cell, electric motors and batteries,

And then that’s the overall efficiency issue, they are currently wasting 60% of the energy that goes into making, storing and using the hydrogen. Compare that to BEV’s which are only wasting around 10-20% of the energy needed to power them.



And hydrogen fuel cell F1 cars would most likely be as boring to watch as FE is currently.

[AJI]

Toyota used an MGUK-only hybrid ... It seems like the MGUH never broke out of F1.

Maybe? Dakar Audi was interesting. Technically it's a 'K', but without a direct link between the ICE and the drive train, so, MGU..'P'?

[Blackout]

If they use the same size ES as now (and 4MJ maximum usage), 350kW could be deployed for 11s.

I think increasing the battery weight from 20kg to 220kg for a minimum car weight of at least 1000kg would be sensible. Electric cars tend to be heavy, so this would be very road relevant.

1000kg is still lightweight compared to roadgoing sportscars.

Leave the maximum MJ usage free and let them have at it trying to make the most energy dense 220kg battery possible!

more focus on electrification does not make sense when we have formula e and wec series.

How so? Automakers like FIAT, Mercedes, Renault, Honda and Volkswagen (including Audi and Porsche) will be or are halting ICE development soon. Given the ICE bans coming in 2030 to 2035 in Europe, there is no financial sense to invest in ICEs when they can better invest in EV platforms instead (many of these legacy ICE automakers are very far behind in EVs compared to Tesla, NIO etc). All that will happen is apparently tweaks to older ICEs to conform to increasingly strict emissions regulations.

So, on this basis, the ICE is (unforunately) "needed" to achieve the 1000hp (otherwise you would need a 2000+kg battery to match 100kg of petrol which is not practical) but the automakers want the competition to be on the electrical size not on the legacy ICE side.

It is already a "favour" to fans to stick with detuned V6 turbo engines and unnecessarily high minimum 10,500rpm for maximum fuel flow instead of market-relevant downsizing to 1.0L V4 turbo engines (and no minimum rpm for max. fuel flow, to allow lower rpm to reduce friction) which would arguably sound even worse. [Sure, the Porsche 919, which is essentially such a lower-revving V4 turbo, has it's fans but overall I don't think it sounds that good.]

Dont forget that these new rules arent just about developing EV, they also aim to develop cleaner ICEs and fuels
Combustion engines are still an exciting challenge. And there still will be billions of them that we can't throw away overnight.

[FW17]

Since they said 3000 mj of carbon neutral synthetic fuel, does that mean diesels are allowed, or there is a chapter on the fuel type?

[Cold Fussion]

Since they said 3000 mj of carbon neutral synthetic fuel, does that mean diesels are allowed, or there is a chapter on the fuel type?

I've seen the 3000 mj figure quoted by news sources but have not found any mention of that in the only 'rules' document i can find. Do you know what the origin is of it?

[mzso]

FCV tech is even less space efficient than pure EV tech!

Just look at the latest Toyota Mirai, it has hydrogen storage tanks, the fuel cell, electric motors and batteries,

And then that’s the overall efficiency issue, they are currently wasting 60% of the energy that goes into making, storing and using the hydrogen. Compare that to BEV’s which are only wasting around 10-20% of the energy needed to power them.

https://global.toyota/pages/news/image ... 00/005.jpg

And hydrogen fuel cell F1 cars would most likely be as boring to watch as FE is currently.

For starters no-one said hydrogen. Shorter chained alkanes and alcohols can be used. Which I think would be ideal for EV F1.

But even if we're thinking about hydrogen, I think it's doable. Lets just say that the Mirai is far from F1 engineering.
Of course the tanks would still be large, but so what? The current cars are overlong and look a bit silly, with almost no car between the rear wheels. They could do with being a bit bulky. Just another aero challenge. Based on a quick look on the 1983 Ferrari they could fit in at least 240 liters in the unlimited turbo era. Not sure which car had the largest tank, there might have been larger tanks. Engineering in one or two huge cylinders is viable.

The fuel creation efficiency is not relevant to F1.
And what do you mean by boring? F1 was probably the most boring racing series for many years. Even the racing entertainment we got in the last season and a half is thanks to rule changes and chance.

[aleks_ader]

I mean those rules are very sensible to appease global PR strategy.

They killed cost, add relevance (if u like or not), providing hook for new manufacturers and they open possibility for backfiring noises for noise purists.

Sure there is not such thing as free lunch.
-no synthetic fuel is magic bullet
-non recyclble batteries also

Anyway those rules are very LMP1-ish I guess Porsche$ group will have quite a big know how. And nowadays Ferrari with Hypercar also.

[mzso]

-non recyclble batteries also

Batteries are recyclable.

[johnny comelately]

Must comment on these particular recent points:
Basic physics ....inertia ....1000KG x 300KPH into fence, car whatever !!!
(This is one of the problems with the recently escalating weights, Grosjean incident for example where it split the Armco)
Extrapolate this...corner speeds, spectacle etc etc

Then add hydrogen, which is under high pressure !!!
Extrapolate this..

More cold water here please, STAT

[aleks_ader]

-non recyclble batteries also

Batteries are recyclable.

Sure they are if u design them as is... That was mine point

[mzso]

-non recyclble batteries also

Batteries are recyclable.

Sure they are if u design them as is... That was mine point

All batteries have all their useful material content inside at their end of life.

[johnny comelately]

RE: IC component, the new fuel charateristics is the most pertinent aspect.
Going down in flow rates so drastically
Its energy levels, burn charateristics and VP, knock resistance, SG, maximum pressures, viscosity, number of injectors etc etc
Does anyone have any details?

Wonder what the total costs of production in terms of environmental impact and price is compared with crude oil derived?

[djos]

FCV tech is even less space efficient than pure EV tech!

Just look at the latest Toyota Mirai, it has hydrogen storage tanks, the fuel cell, electric motors and batteries,

And then that’s the overall efficiency issue, they are currently wasting 60% of the energy that goes into making, storing and using the hydrogen. Compare that to BEV’s which are only wasting around 10-20% of the energy needed to power them.

https://global.toyota/pages/news/image ... 00/005.jpg

And hydrogen fuel cell F1 cars would most likely be as boring to watch as FE is currently.

For starters no-one said hydrogen. Shorter chained alkanes and alcohols can be used. Which I think would be ideal for EV F1.

But even if we're thinking about hydrogen, I think it's doable. Lets just say that the Mirai is far from F1 engineering.
Of course the tanks would still be large, but so what? The current cars are overlong and look a bit silly, with almost no car between the rear wheels. They could do with being a bit bulky. Just another aero challenge. Based on a quick look on the 1983 Ferrari they could fit in at least 240 liters in the unlimited turbo era. Not sure which car had the largest tank, there might have been larger tanks. Engineering in one or two huge cylinders is viable.

The fuel creation efficiency is not relevant to F1.
And what do you mean by boring? F1 was probably the most boring racing series for many years. Even the racing entertainment we got in the last season and a half is thanks to rule changes and chance.

Fuel cell tech, regardless of type, is entirely unsuitable for F1. And would be quite dangerous in an accident.