2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:22 am
Is that rules about decel a rolling second?

Don't they "pulse" the K at like 40Hz, where it always has a bit of regen by doing m,m,m,m,m,m,m,r,m,m,m,m,m,m,m,m,r type cycling?
5.14.5 The driver maximum torque demand may only be reduced at a maximum rate of 100kW in any 1s period and the power reduction will be limited to a maximum of 450kW.

When the torque demand is at 100% the output can only be reduced by 100kW in 1s.

Between 300km/h and 340km/h the MGUK output must be reduced by 5kW every 1km/h increase in speed. So that transition must be at 100kW/s or less.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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organic wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 am
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -batterie/

AMuS article about 2026 power units, focusing on the potential for lack of deployment
Just noticed and read this.

Front recovery would help deployment if the recovery power was more than the deployment power. If they were the same, it would be the same situation as the rules as written.

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Holm86
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:55 am
organic wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 am
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -batterie/

AMuS article about 2026 power units, focusing on the potential for lack of deployment
Just noticed and read this.

Front recovery would help deployment if the recovery power was more than the deployment power. If they were the same, it would be the same situation as the rules as written.
The article mentions they seek a BTE of 60% compared to the 52% as of now, how on earth should that be possible with the removal of the MGU-H?

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:44 am
wuzak wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:55 am
organic wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 am
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -batterie/

AMuS article about 2026 power units, focusing on the potential for lack of deployment
Just noticed and read this.

Front recovery would help deployment if the recovery power was more than the deployment power. If they were the same, it would be the same situation as the rules as written.
The article mentions they seek a BTE of 60% compared to the 52% as of now, how on earth should that be possible with the removal of the MGU-H?
Good question.

The 52% efficiency is achieved in turbo-compound mode, not going to be possible with new rules.

The target I have seen is for ~400kW/530hp, which is 48% efficiency.

60% efficiency is 500kW/670hp.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:55 am
organic wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 am
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -batterie/

AMuS article about 2026 power units, focusing on the potential for lack of deployment
Just noticed and read this.

Front recovery would help deployment if the recovery power was more than the deployment power. If they were the same, it would be the same situation as the rules as written.
They could throw a spanner in and say teams can use front recovery as long as they keep the same weight limit.
We may see some unexpected innovation
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 4:30 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:50 am
Guys, every way I read regen when the driver has throttle on seems to suggest reducing the power delivered to the tyres, -to whit, traction control. Is this correct or am I missing out on something besides the 'you can not use traction control' rule?
Would the maximum 100kW reduction in 1s be too slow for effective traction control?

It would be interesting to see if it is interpreted as a linear reduction (ie 0.25s = 25kW reduction, 0.50s = 50kW, 0.75s = 75kW) or if they are able to do things creatively - drop 99kW as fast as the motor will allow and take the remainder of the second to drop the last kW.
Why not 500kW for 0.1s and then increasing it back?

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:44 am
wuzak wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:55 am
organic wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 am
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -batterie/

AMuS article about 2026 power units, focusing on the potential for lack of deployment
Just noticed and read this.

Front recovery would help deployment if the recovery power was more than the deployment power. If they were the same, it would be the same situation as the rules as written.
The article mentions they seek a BTE of 60% compared to the 52% as of now, how on earth should that be possible with the removal of the MGU-H?
Fuel synthesis from the exhaust heat-energy and material. :)

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:17 am
mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:53 am
wuzak wrote:
Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:57 pm
Could it be for the start of a straight?

Car exits the corner and the driver demands full power, which means that, at some point, the power given is 350kW MGUK + 400kW ICE.

But with only 4MJ of storage, 350kW can only last for so long.

Is this rule to stop cars accelerating with 750kW suddenly only having 400kW?

A straight like Spa's La Source to Les Combes is ~23s. 4MJ will allow 5s of MGUK @ 350kW and 15s of MGUK @ 150kW. This rule could mean that the transition must take a minimum of 2s.
This rule is wacky. So the maximum reduction can only be 450kW. Meaning there can't be any regen if the straight is started with full power with the K active.
Does it mean that the maximum regen when the driver has his foot on the throttle is 100kW?

Start the straight with 400kW ICE and 350kW MGUK, 750kW total, which can be reduced by a maximum of 450kW, which gives a minimum power of 300kW, meaning only 100kW of generation is allowed.

That, of course, changes when the driver brakes, as there is no longer any torque demand.
I don't know what it means. The more I look at it the more nonsensical it seems.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:33 pm
wuzak wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:17 am
mzso wrote:
Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:53 am

This rule is wacky. So the maximum reduction can only be 450kW. Meaning there can't be any regen if the straight is started with full power with the K active.
Does it mean that the maximum regen when the driver has his foot on the throttle is 100kW?

Start the straight with 400kW ICE and 350kW MGUK, 750kW total, which can be reduced by a maximum of 450kW, which gives a minimum power of 300kW, meaning only 100kW of generation is allowed.

That, of course, changes when the driver brakes, as there is no longer any torque demand.
I don't know what it means. The more I look at it the more nonsensical it seems.

The numbers I can come up with seem to suggest that to recover 9MJ they will have about 52.5s per lap regenerating on an average F1 circuit.
wuzak wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:23 am
Let's assume 15s of braking heavy enough to recover @ 350kW.

That gives 5.25MJ, leaving 3.75MJ that is allowed to be recovered.

3.75MJ @ 100kW = 37.5s. That's about 40-50% of most laps in F1 where they would be flat chat down the straights with 300kw/400hp!
52.5s generating and ~25s @ 350kW deployment. So about the full lap time at most circuits (or more than some).

The reason for dropping the MGUH was to simplify the engine. But, to me, the MGUH is very simple in concept. What was complex was the energy management. But with the 2026 PUs the energy management will be just as complex, if not more so due to the additional parameters/restrictions of use.

gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:56 pm
wuzak wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:23 am
Let's assume 15s of braking heavy enough to recover @ 350kW.

That gives 5.25MJ, leaving 3.75MJ that is allowed to be recovered.

3.75MJ @ 100kW = 37.5s. That's about 40-50% of most laps in F1 where they would be flat chat down the straights with 300kw/400hp!
52.5s generating and ~25s @ 350kW deployment. So about the full lap time at most circuits (or more than some).

The reason for dropping the MGUH was to simplify the engine. But, to me, the MGUH is very simple in concept. What was complex was the energy management. But with the 2026 PUs the energy management will be just as complex, if not more so due to the additional parameters/restrictions of use.
100kW generation limit only applies to periods of maximum driver demand. Up to 350kW generation is available any time the driver demand is less than 100%

eg demand is 100 kw, output 400 kW, generation 300 kW.
je suis charlie

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:57 am
wuzak wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 4:56 pm
wuzak wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:23 am
Let's assume 15s of braking heavy enough to recover @ 350kW.

That gives 5.25MJ, leaving 3.75MJ that is allowed to be recovered.

3.75MJ @ 100kW = 37.5s. That's about 40-50% of most laps in F1 where they would be flat chat down the straights with 300kw/400hp!
52.5s generating and ~25s @ 350kW deployment. So about the full lap time at most circuits (or more than some).

The reason for dropping the MGUH was to simplify the engine. But, to me, the MGUH is very simple in concept. What was complex was the energy management. But with the 2026 PUs the energy management will be just as complex, if not more so due to the additional parameters/restrictions of use.
100kW generation limit only applies to periods of maximum driver demand. Up to 350kW generation is available any time the driver demand is less than 100%

eg demand is 100 kw, output 400 kW, generation 300 kW.
How much of a lap is that the case? How much will be generated there?

In traction zones I would imagine the MGUK deploying to help the turbo overcome any lag.

Lift and coast?

Won't that be great for racing, lifting a coasting for 5+s at the end of every straight?

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:57 am
eg demand is 100 kw, output 400 kW, generation 300 kW.
Also, 400kW is only available above 10,500rpm.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 2:44 am
wuzak wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:55 am
organic wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 am
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -batterie/

AMuS article about 2026 power units, focusing on the potential for lack of deployment
Just noticed and read this.

Front recovery would help deployment if the recovery power was more than the deployment power. If they were the same, it would be the same situation as the rules as written.
The article mentions they seek a BTE of 60% compared to the 52% as of now, how on earth should that be possible with the removal of the MGU-H?
...and no front regen🤔

A spec MGUH and matching combustion chamber geometry would be the only way to keep the H and stop development cost war in that component.

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Juzh
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:55 am
organic wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:16 am
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -batterie/

AMuS article about 2026 power units, focusing on the potential for lack of deployment
Just noticed and read this.

Front recovery would help deployment if the recovery power was more than the deployment power. If they were the same, it would be the same situation as the rules as written.
LMP1 2.0 incoming, most certainly to appease Audi and/or Porsche. Vomit inducing.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Just for comparison:

2018 LMP1h regulations specify (for Le Mans circuit):

Maximum released energy per lap: 8MJ.
Released power maximum: 300kW
Petrol Energy: 124.9MJ/Lap
Maximum Petrol Flow: 80.2kg/h

They also say: The amount of releasable energy per lap will be limited in the proportion of length of circuit relative to the length of Le Mans circuit multiplied by
factor 1.55.
The amount of fuel allocation per lap will be limited in the proportion of length of circuit relative to the length of Le Mans circuit multiplied by factor
1.11.

If I calculate that correctly, a maximum of 6.37MJ of energy can be released per lap at Spa.

There appears to be no capacity limit on the energy store.


For 2015 the numbers were (for the 8MJ class)
Maximum released energy per lap: 8MJ.
Released power maximum: unlimited
Petrol Energy: 138.0MJ/Lap
Maximum Petrol Flow: 88.5kg/h
Petrol Energy: 128.1MJ/Lap
Maximum Petrol Flow: 75.1kg/h

The same correction factors were used for shorter tracks.

Two MGUs were allowed per car. They could be front and rear wheel MGUKs, as on the Audi, or an MGUK and MGUH, as on the Porsche 919.

And even with the length of the track, lift and coast was still required, even in qualifying laps.