2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:44 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:27 pm
With ICE being phased out entirely in the car industry (although many will be “what about fuel cells, bio fuel etc”, there are nog big manufacturers that are backing this movement) its not logical that a new type of ICE is going to be developed for F1. I think it’s more a political move or fantasy as we all transition into electric motors.
But we are judging this on todays I.C.E. If we can develop a very low (I am not going to say no as it will not happen) emission unit and also renewable fuel to 'burn' in it things may change. If it going to happen, the most likely place is in F1
With ICE's banned in not many years, it would be unwise to sink a ton of development costs in those (in Europe at least). And for markets that are not going to ban the ICE, they aren't investing in an efficient ICE anyway. It's a step that might give some efficientcy in the short term, but not wise spending resources in something that is obsolete within 5 years (as the ICE ban will come into play in 2030 In the UK for instance). It makes much more sense to take the ICE out of the development race all together by freezing the ICE regulations or let Gibson or Cosworth produce a standard part for all teams until F1 can go full electric.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:37 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:44 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:27 pm
With ICE being phased out entirely in the car industry (although many will be “what about fuel cells, bio fuel etc”, there are nog big manufacturers that are backing this movement) its not logical that a new type of ICE is going to be developed for F1. I think it’s more a political move or fantasy as we all transition into electric motors.
But we are judging this on todays I.C.E. If we can develop a very low (I am not going to say no as it will not happen) emission unit and also renewable fuel to 'burn' in it things may change. If it going to happen, the most likely place is in F1
With ICE's banned in not many years, it would be unwise to sink a ton of development costs in those (in Europe at least). And for markets that are not going to ban the ICE, they aren't investing in an efficient ICE anyway. It's a step that might give some efficientcy in the short term, but not wise spending resources in something that is obsolete within 5 years (as the ICE ban will come into play in 2030 In the UK for instance). It makes much more sense to take the ICE out of the development race all together by freezing the ICE regulations or let Gibson or Cosworth produce a standard part for all teams until F1 can go full electric.
But I.C.E's are not being banned,(even in UK) just I.C.E. only cars. I believe it is only fossle fuel, how ever they word it, that is not to be allowed to be made.

Right or wrong I see most cars meeting in the middle and most being hybrid. As so many people will not have access to home charging, and it will take 30 years or more to establish a good charging system in a large enough region to make having an eclectic car a reliable enough option for many people the only alternative is hybrid.

As with most things, pressure groups nag at the government until they they get the result they want, even if it is not the right thing. I think there will be a place for very much improved I.C.E hybrids for many years. They almost certainly will not be petrol or diesel though, so this is an opening for F1
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:51 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:37 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:44 pm


But we are judging this on todays I.C.E. If we can develop a very low (I am not going to say no as it will not happen) emission unit and also renewable fuel to 'burn' in it things may change. If it going to happen, the most likely place is in F1
With ICE's banned in not many years, it would be unwise to sink a ton of development costs in those (in Europe at least). And for markets that are not going to ban the ICE, they aren't investing in an efficient ICE anyway. It's a step that might give some efficientcy in the short term, but not wise spending resources in something that is obsolete within 5 years (as the ICE ban will come into play in 2030 In the UK for instance). It makes much more sense to take the ICE out of the development race all together by freezing the ICE regulations or let Gibson or Cosworth produce a standard part for all teams until F1 can go full electric.
But I.C.E's are not being banned,(even in UK) just I.C.E. only cars. I believe it is only fossle fuel, how ever they word it, that is not to be allowed to be made.

Right or wrong I see most cars meeting in the middle and most being hybrid. As so many people will not have access to home charging, and it will take 30 years or more to establish a good charging system in a large enough region to make having an eclectic car a reliable enough option for many people the only alternative is hybrid.

As with most things, pressure groups nag at the government until they they get the result they want, even if it is not the right thing. I think there will be a place for very much improved I.C.E hybrids for many years. They almost certainly will not be petrol or diesel though, so this is an opening for F1
It might... but the electrification of car parks can go pretty fast, at least, if the government is behind it. I live in the Netherlands, they are popping up like crazy here, most of the city center streets have more then enough for the current amount of (the many) tesla's, lots of people have home chargers and larger car parks in area's where people buy new cars have lots of charge points. all done in the last 5 years. Plus, at least two of the F1 participants stated that electric is their way forward, not investing in alternative ICE's (what would costs billions before it would come even close to the existing four strokes)

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RedNEO
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:58 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:51 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:37 pm

With ICE's banned in not many years, it would be unwise to sink a ton of development costs in those (in Europe at least). And for markets that are not going to ban the ICE, they aren't investing in an efficient ICE anyway. It's a step that might give some efficientcy in the short term, but not wise spending resources in something that is obsolete within 5 years (as the ICE ban will come into play in 2030 In the UK for instance). It makes much more sense to take the ICE out of the development race all together by freezing the ICE regulations or let Gibson or Cosworth produce a standard part for all teams until F1 can go full electric.
But I.C.E's are not being banned,(even in UK) just I.C.E. only cars. I believe it is only fossle fuel, how ever they word it, that is not to be allowed to be made.

Right or wrong I see most cars meeting in the middle and most being hybrid. As so many people will not have access to home charging, and it will take 30 years or more to establish a good charging system in a large enough region to make having an eclectic car a reliable enough option for many people the only alternative is hybrid.

As with most things, pressure groups nag at the government until they they get the result they want, even if it is not the right thing. I think there will be a place for very much improved I.C.E hybrids for many years. They almost certainly will not be petrol or diesel though, so this is an opening for F1
It might... but the electrification of car parks can go pretty fast, at least, if the government is behind it. I live in the Netherlands, they are popping up like crazy here, most of the city center streets have more then enough for the current amount of (the many) tesla's, lots of people have home chargers and larger car parks in area's where people buy new cars have lots of charge points. all done in the last 5 years. Plus, at least two of the F1 participants stated that electric is their way forward, not investing in alternative ICE's (what would costs billions before it would come even close to the existing four strokes)
Congrats you live in an area that isn’t the norm. Charging points and people with driveways isn’t the norm. Most people live in flats/apartments that have many levels and no designated parking spots and unless you want to see cables somehow going up the side of buildings and people walking into a spiderweb of cables on the sidewalk I don’t know what to tell you. It would be a total disaster to have that much clutter and it still won’t be enough because you just won’t be able to account for every car especially when most family’s have at least two cars.

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nzjrs
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:44 pm
Repeating what I said in the other thread just in case anyone has access to this.
I'll update if I manage to get a copy of the presentations.

Can anyone access the IMechE high performance powertrains conference presentations from November this year?
https://events.imeche.org/ViewEvent?e=7066

I am told Pat Symonds discussed at large their vision for 2026 engines.
I'm quoting this comment just so it isn't buried and this thread becomes another argument about ICE vs Battery global energy balance.

I'd love to know what Pat talked about.

Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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RedNEO wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:04 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:58 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:51 pm


But I.C.E's are not being banned,(even in UK) just I.C.E. only cars. I believe it is only fossle fuel, how ever they word it, that is not to be allowed to be made.

Right or wrong I see most cars meeting in the middle and most being hybrid. As so many people will not have access to home charging, and it will take 30 years or more to establish a good charging system in a large enough region to make having an eclectic car a reliable enough option for many people the only alternative is hybrid.

As with most things, pressure groups nag at the government until they they get the result they want, even if it is not the right thing. I think there will be a place for very much improved I.C.E hybrids for many years. They almost certainly will not be petrol or diesel though, so this is an opening for F1
It might... but the electrification of car parks can go pretty fast, at least, if the government is behind it. I live in the Netherlands, they are popping up like crazy here, most of the city center streets have more then enough for the current amount of (the many) tesla's, lots of people have home chargers and larger car parks in area's where people buy new cars have lots of charge points. all done in the last 5 years. Plus, at least two of the F1 participants stated that electric is their way forward, not investing in alternative ICE's (what would costs billions before it would come even close to the existing four strokes)
Congrats you live in an area that isn’t the norm. Charging points and people with driveways isn’t the norm. Most people live in flats/apartments that have many levels and no designated parking spots and unless you want to see cables somehow going up the side of buildings and people walking into a spiderweb of cables on the sidewalk I don’t know what to tell you. It would be a total disaster to have that much clutter and it still won’t be enough because you just won’t be able to account for every car especially when most family’s have at least two cars.
Even at the parking spaces around high risers and flats/apartments etc, the plug-in parkings are popping up everywhere. No need to plug in into your kitchen with an extension. I live in a social housing apartment and looking out over a community carpark for around 100 cars. It has 10 dedicated spots for electric parking with a charger.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:49 am
RedNEO wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:04 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:58 pm


It might... but the electrification of car parks can go pretty fast, at least, if the government is behind it. I live in the Netherlands, they are popping up like crazy here, most of the city center streets have more then enough for the current amount of (the many) tesla's, lots of people have home chargers and larger car parks in area's where people buy new cars have lots of charge points. all done in the last 5 years. Plus, at least two of the F1 participants stated that electric is their way forward, not investing in alternative ICE's (what would costs billions before it would come even close to the existing four strokes)
Congrats you live in an area that isn’t the norm. Charging points and people with driveways isn’t the norm. Most people live in flats/apartments that have many levels and no designated parking spots and unless you want to see cables somehow going up the side of buildings and people walking into a spiderweb of cables on the sidewalk I don’t know what to tell you. It would be a total disaster to have that much clutter and it still won’t be enough because you just won’t be able to account for every car especially when most family’s have at least two cars.
Even at the parking spaces around high risers and flats/apartments etc, the plug-in parkings are popping up everywhere. No need to plug in into your kitchen with an extension. I live in a social housing apartment and looking out over a community carpark for around 100 cars. It has 10 dedicated spots for electric parking with a charger.
That’s why electric cars will be a niche for a hand full of people. It’s hard enough to just find somewhere to park your car, add on top of that finding an accessible charging point and it’s an instant turn off for most people. Much easier to freely park your car anywhere without worrying about batteries.

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hollus
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Please continue any discussion about electric cars between the population at large at this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29554
Or in a dedicated thread.

Shall we keep this for a F1 power unit in 2025 or thereabouts?
I would like to see a paleontologist.

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hollus
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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nzjrs wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:29 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:44 pm
Repeating what I said in the other thread just in case anyone has access to this.
I'll update if I manage to get a copy of the presentations.

Can anyone access the IMechE high performance powertrains conference presentations from November this year?
https://events.imeche.org/ViewEvent?e=7066

I am told Pat Symonds discussed at large their vision for 2026 engines.
I'm quoting this comment just so it isn't buried and this thread becomes another argument about ICE vs Battery global energy balance.

I'd love to know what Pat talked about.
I would like to see a paleontologist.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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But for consumer cars I believe full electric or plug-in hybrid will be the standard. Driving electric for most of the time, only using gasoline for the longer drives. In such case, the technology for the ICE becomes less important. Price production and maintenance will be the main decider.

Also if we allow the manufacturers to develop their own version, they will drop 1 bilion at to become the best. We will see 2014-2020 all over again. The other solution is develop a spec engine. But I don’t think Merc, Renault, Ferrari are interested in any of both.

Like I said, it will probably be a fairly conservative ICE running their E-fuel.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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I've got in touch with someone who attended the ImechE conference I've mentioned in the previous posts. Did not manage to get any of the presentations but I was provided with a very good summary:

FIA has contracted IFPEN Transports Energie Carnot Institute (https://www.ifpenergiesnouvelles.com/in ... -institute) to study different options for future F1 PUs. FIA's initial guidelines suggests ultra-downsizing to roughly half the current engine displacement. Fuel mass flow and on-board fuel will halve. BTE target is set to 60%. Emission regulations and P4 hybridization with front axle recovery have also been suggested but do not appear to be firm targets.

Technologies proposed to achieve these objectives include:
-Removing the CR limit
-HCCI and spark-assisted HCCI
-2 stage supercharging
-Water injection

At the moment they seem to be leaning towards keeping the MGUH.
Teams are expected to feed back which of these technologies they would like to pursue. As manufacturers start finding common ground the regulations will start to firm up.

mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Mudflap wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:47 pm
I've got in touch with someone who attended the ImechE conference I've mentioned in the previous posts. Did not manage to get any of the presentations but I was provided with a very good summary:

FIA has contracted IFPEN Transports Energie Carnot Institute (https://www.ifpenergiesnouvelles.com/in ... -institute) to study different options for future F1 PUs. FIA's initial guidelines suggests ultra-downsizing to roughly half the current engine displacement. Fuel mass flow and on-board fuel will halve. BTE target is set to 60%. Emission regulations and P4 hybridization with front axle recovery have also been suggested but do not appear to be firm targets.

Technologies proposed to achieve these objectives include:
-Removing the CR limit
-HCCI and spark-assisted HCCI
-2 stage supercharging
-Water injection

At the moment they seem to be leaning towards keeping the MGUH.
Teams are expected to feed back which of these technologies they would like to pursue. As manufacturers start finding common ground the regulations will start to firm up.
Half the fuel means roughly half the power, right? No reasonable amount of battery storage will compensate for it.
So how will they sell that to anyone at all? It would make F1 weaker and/or slower than many other series, including F2.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Obviously they will increase battery capacity and electric motor power to compensate.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Mudflap wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 3:25 pm
Obviously they will increase battery capacity and electric motor power to compensate.
And hopefully reduce weight by at least 30%
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Well, even with diminutive ICEs, less on-board fuel and tiny heat rejection I don't think I can see the weight reducing if overall PU output is to be conserved.

The battery will be heavier and the electric front axle will require big reduction stages for the high speed electric motors.