2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

[wuzak]

Autosport thinks that the 2026 Power Units will be louder, and the 2026 cars more spectacular



With the weight being similar, the power being less, and energy management dictating more lift-and-coast, I'm not sure that the 2026 cars will be all that spectacular.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Could it be for the start of a straight?

Car exits the corner and the driver demands full power, which means that, at some point, the power given is 350kW MGUK + 400kW ICE.

But with only 4MJ of storage, 350kW can only last for so long.

Is this rule to stop cars accelerating with 750kW suddenly only having 400kW?

A straight like Spa's La Source to Les Combes is ~23s. 4MJ will allow 5s of MGUK @ 350kW and 15s of MGUK @ 150kW. This rule could mean that the transition must take a minimum of 2s.

I think that if current F1 cars weighed as light as they did back in the early/mid 1990's when they were weighing around 1,300 pounds (589 kilos) that too much extra boost or electrical power could be too much. But, today the cars are much heavier and I think can have more electrical power for some "push to pass" system.

Indycar is also having some similar "problems" with the heavier weight of their Dallara cars. Those cars don't seem as powerful, fast and exhilarating as the CART/Champ Cars of 1994-2002 that were V8 turbo methanol and lighter. Those cars were 1,000 HP, 18,000 RPM and 240 MPH.

I like the 2017 Porsche 919 Hybrid/Evo system that collects exhaust energy from the turbo, stores it in the battery where the electric motor turns the car into temporarily AWD off the corners and uses it to accelerate off corners.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Has it been made official? Is F1 going with fully synthetic fuel carbon capture by 2026? I can remember Paddy Lowe and also Porsche were suppose to be developing synthetic fuels and Ross Brawn was promoting it. MotoGP is suppose to be going to synthetic fuels.

If fully synthetic fuels aren't available just yet, should F1 use E85 or methanol fuel for added power ?

I don't know how sincere and honest F1 is about hybrid technology if the rules don't allow engineers to develop hybrid electric power more aggressively and use it more aggressively during races. I think the rules are a little too restrictive, conservative and limiting on how F1 teams are allowed to deploy hybrid power during races and how much electrical power is allowed to be used.

I think that F1 cars during races under caution should all go fully electric and also have to go fully electric while in the pits.

As I posted above, I like the 2017 Porsche 919 Hybrid/Evo system that collects exhaust energy from the turbo, stores it in the battery where the electric motor turns the car into temporarily AWD off the corners and uses it to accelerate off corners.

I'd like to see a system developed that uses the motion of the vehicle/wheels that constantly recharges the battery while the car is in motion so there is a constant war between battery recharging during motion and also battery power being used. The motion of the car is the battery's recharging system. Put little motor rechargers in the wheels, while the wheels spin it sends electrical recharging energy to the battery to recharge it i.e. motion recharging.

or...

Maybe something similar to M.I.T.'s Cheetah that has rechargers in it's legs so every time the Cheetah hopped that energy from the hopping would be collected and be sent to the battery...

“In Cheetah 3, everything is super integrated, so if you want to change something, you have to do a ton of redesign,” Katz says. “Whereas with the mini cheetah, if you wanted to add another arm, you could just add three or four more of these modular motors.”

Katz came up with the electric motor design by reconfiguring the parts to small, commercially available motors normally used in drones and remote-controlled airplanes.

Each of the robot’s 12 motors is about the size of a Mason jar lid, and consists of: a stator, or set of coils, that generates a rotating magnetic field; a small controller that conveys the amount of current the stator should produce; a rotor, lined with magnets, that rotates with the stator’s field, producing torque to lift or rotate a limb; a gearbox that provides a 6:1 gear reduction, enabling the rotor to provide six times the torque that it normally would; and a position sensor that measures the angle and orientation of the motor and associated limb.

Each leg is powered by three motors, to give it three degrees of freedom and a huge range of motion. The lightweight, high-torque, low-inertia design enables the robot to execute fast, dynamic maneuvers and make high-force impacts on the ground without breaking gearboxes or limbs."

https://news.mit.edu/2019/mit-mini-chee ... kflip-0304

https://news.mit.edu/2022/3-questions-h ... -fast-0317

[wuzak]

Has it been made official? Is F1 going with fully synthetic fuel carbon capture by 2026? I can remember Paddy Lowe and also Porsche were suppose to be developing synthetic fuels and Ross Brawn was promoting it. MotoGP is suppose to be going to synthetic fuels.

It is officially going to carbon-neutral fuel for 2026.

Whether that is bio-fuel based or completely synthetic, I am not sure.

It seems that limiting the fuel flow by energy flow, rather than mass flow, the FIA are expecting more than one solution.

If fully synthetic fuels aren't available just yet, should F1 use E85 or methanol fuel for added power ?

Using E85 would mean loss of power if fuel flow (100kg/hr) is maintained, or increase in fuel consumption if energy flow is maintained (~4,500MJ/hr).

This year they are running 10% bio-ethanol content, rather than 5% bio-fuel in previous seasons, and have lost some power.

I don't know how sincere and honest F1 is about hybrid technology if the rules don't allow engineers to develop hybrid electric power more aggressively and use it more aggressively during races. I think the rules are a little too restrictive, conservative and limiting on how F1 teams are allowed to deploy hybrid power during races and how much electrical power is allowed to be used.

Current rules allow 2MJ recovery from MGUK to Energy Store per lap, unlimited recovery from MGUH to Energy Store, 4MJ deployment from Energy Store to MGUK and unlimited deployment from MGUH to MGUK. And unlimited recovery from MGUK to MGUH, which may, or may not, be being used currently.

MGUK power is limited to 120kW, MGUH power is unlimited.

For 2026 there is no MGUH, so there is only the MGUK for recovery and deployment.

The MGUK has gone up to 350kW, maximum allowed recovery per lap is 9MJ and deployment is unlimited. At most tracks the 9MJ recovery (and, thus, available for deployment) is unlikely, so the the game will be to maximise recovery.

Also, the battery size remains at 4MJ, so they won't be able to run the MGUK at full power on long straights, and MGUK power is reduced from 350kW @ 300kph to 150kW @ 340kph.

I think that F1 cars during races under caution should all go fully electric and also have to go fully electric while in the pits.

The size of the battery would make the first a problem, especially for restarts. The latter was proposed for the current power units leading up to 2014, but the idea was ditched for some reason.

As I posted above, I like the 2017 Porsche 919 Hybrid/Evo system that collects exhaust energy from the turbo, stores it in the battery where the electric motor turns the car into temporarily AWD off the corners and uses it to accelerate off corners.

The LMP1 rules of that era allowed two MGUs. Most opted from front and rear MGUKs, but Porsche used a front wheel MGUK and a MGUH connected to a turbine, which was fed exhaust from the turbocharger.

The current F1 power units use an MGUH connected to the turbo, which gives the added benefit of being able to spool the turbo if needed.

I would guess that the F1 MGUH is more effective than Porsche's 919.

The MGUH is being dropped for 2026, to appease potential new engine suppliers. Which appear to be Audi and Porsche, who took part in formulating the rules.

I'd like to see a system developed that uses the motion of the vehicle/wheels that constantly recharges the battery while the car is in motion so there is a constant war between battery recharging during motion and also battery power being used. The motion of the car is the battery's recharging system. Put little motor rechargers in the wheels, while the wheels spin it sends electrical recharging energy to the battery to recharge it i.e. motion recharging.

If the MGUs are charging while the car is in motion, it means burning fuel to charge the battery, the car is slow down, or, at least, not accelerating as fast.

The 2026 rules would appear to allow this, but it would mean a significant drop in power from deploying to charging.

[wuzak]

I think that if current F1 cars weighed as light as they did back in the early/mid 1990's when they were weighing around 1,300 pounds (589 kilos) that too much extra boost or electrical power could be too much. But, today the cars are much heavier and I think can have more electrical power for some "push to pass" system.

The cars were 600kg, including driver, in the early 1990s.

The first KERS systems in F1 in 2009 were thought to give a push-to-pass facility, but the reality was that the KERS was mainly used in different parts of the track to improve lap times.

To use it as a push-to-pass, it would need to be limited to so many seconds during a race, rather than an amount of energy per lap.

[Tommy Cookers]

.. I'd like to see a system developed that uses the motion of the vehicle/wheels that constantly recharges the battery while the car is in motion so there is a constant war between battery recharging during motion and also battery power being used. The motion of the car is the battery's recharging system. Put little motor rechargers in the wheels, while the wheels spin it sends electrical recharging energy to the battery to recharge it i.e. motion recharging....

2 reasons why the 'motion of the car' is the wrong thing to tap ....

there's a tappable ICE there already and .... it's ideally linked to the motion of the car
(ideally linked due to the 8 speed instant-shift transmission)

ideal for an MG and its enabling electrical/electronic system because .....
in keeping constant the ICE rpm and torque it keeps constant the MG rpm and the MG voltage (and other voltages)
an electric machine/system package is less efficient if the voltage falls and current is correspondingly increased

the F1 transmission is doing big favours to the electrical side

[Holm86]

Autosport thinks that the 2026 Power Units will be louder, and the 2026 cars more spectacular

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-d4gIQ-Wfk

With the weight being similar, the power being less, and energy management dictating more lift-and-coast, I'm not sure that the 2026 cars will be all that spectacular.

The person who made that video must be an intern, or someone who doesn't understand the new regulations.

[Honda Porsche fan]

.. I'd like to see a system developed that uses the motion of the vehicle/wheels that constantly recharges the battery while the car is in motion so there is a constant war between battery recharging during motion and also battery power being used. The motion of the car is the battery's recharging system. Put little motor rechargers in the wheels, while the wheels spin it sends electrical recharging energy to the battery to recharge it i.e. motion recharging....

2 reasons why the 'motion of the car' is the wrong thing to tap ....

there's a tappable ICE there already and .... it's ideally linked to the motion of the car
(ideally linked due to the 8 speed instant-shift transmission)

ideal for an MG and its enabling electrical/electronic system because .....
in keeping constant the ICE rpm and torque it keeps constant the MG rpm and the MG voltage (and other voltages)
an electric machine/system package is less efficient if the voltage falls and current is correspondingly increased

the F1 transmission is doing big favours to the electrical side

In theory, would autogyro's ESERU (Electronic Shift Energy Recovery Unit) be what is needed "IF" what he claimed is true and capable of ? Wouldn't it help recharge the battery in a different or better way than what is currently done ?

He claimed that his 'ESERU' replaces regenerative braking.

[Tommy Cookers]

the 2025/6 car could be driven by having the driver control the MGU-K (the ICE being driver-uncontrolled)

as the max MGU-K torque will increase as rpm falls (until c.50% rpm)
its torque when generating would even be able to stall the ICE (a constant torque device) ....

even with fixed coupling and no gears the MGU-K and ICE together could behave like a virtual CVT
though coupling via some Prius-style transmission would be a better way

but the 8-gear system has been chosen - presumably for effect
it helps electrical efficiency by keeping MGU-K rpm high through the braking zones - as an intelligent CVT might

[johnny comelately]

the 2025/6 car could be driven by having the driver control the MGU-K (the ICE being driver-uncontrolled)

as the max MGU-K torque will increase as rpm falls (until c.50% rpm)
its torque when generating would even be able to stall the ICE (a constant torque device) ....

even with fixed coupling and no gears the MGU-K and ICE together could behave like a virtual CVT
though coupling via some Prius-style transmission would be a better way

but the 8-gear system has been chosen - presumably for effect
it helps electrical efficiency by keeping MGU-K rpm high through the braking zones - as an intelligent CVT might

Getting closer to the Audi RS Q e-tron (Dakar) car then, heaven forbid

[wuzak]

I wonder if the Mexico City GP is what all GPs will be in 2026.

A lot of lift-and-coast for brake and energy management.

[JordanMugen]

I wonder if the Mexico City GP is what all GPs will be in 2026.

A lot of lift-and-coast for brake and energy management.

Could be! Like Formula E, the way of the future?

[AR3-GP]

It was insane hearing drivers being told ("less lift and coast, the tires aren't hot enough" )

[Honda Porsche fan]

The LMP1 rules of that era allowed two MGUs. Most opted from front and rear MGUKs, but Porsche used a front wheel MGUK and a MGUH connected to a turbine, which was fed exhaust from the turbocharger.

The current F1 power units use an MGUH connected to the turbo, which gives the added benefit of being able to spool the turbo if needed.

I would guess that the F1 MGUH is more effective than Porsche's 919.

The MGUH is being dropped for 2026, to appease potential new engine suppliers. Which appear to be Audi and Porsche, who took part in formulating the rules.

On the 2017 Porsche 919 Hybrid the car was temporarily AWD as the front wheels accelerated/powered the car out of the corners. Could current F1 cars do that with their MGU-K/MGU-H system if they were allowed AWD ?

Do any current LMP cars or the new Hypercars for 2023 use F1's MGU-K/MGU-H system ? If not, why not? Shouldn't technology from F1 filter down to other series?

I'd like to see F1's current MGU-K/MGU-H technology go to road cars like it does on the Mercedes AMG One.

[MadMax]

On the 2017 Porsche 919 Hybrid the car was temporarily AWD as the front wheels accelerated/powered the car out of the corners. Could current F1 cars do that with their MGU-K/MGU-H system if they were allowed AWD ?

Do any current LMP cars or the new Hypercars for 2023 use F1's MGU-K/MGU-H system ? If not, why not? Shouldn't technology from F1 filter down to other series?

I'd like to see F1's current MGU-K/MGU-H technology go to road cars like it does on the Mercedes AMG One.

Yes, they could do that if the rules allowed. Would they? Perhaps not as it's adding mass and volume-filling equipment in a tightly packaged part of the car. In LMP, having a motor up front has very little impact on the aero packaging of the car as the nose box is quite large. On an F1 car, the nose is as small as the rules allow in order to maximise aerodynamic benefit. Likewise, adding a driveshaft up front would impact airflow going to the rest of the car.

F1 isn't a feeder series for anything. LMP/LMP-H are not F1 cars and have different compromises because they run entirely different types of races.

Road cars use regen braking which is basically what the MGU-K does anyway just without the annoying acronym. The MGU-H is probably not that useful in a road car where multiple turbos are often installed.