2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Surely not fully 'depowering' the engine will have the same effect as if it is still driving the wheels it can recover more energy from them, assuming the 'recovery system' is slowing the car, not using the disks?
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:46 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:11 am
Personally I am certainly convinced that an engine design team leader will know exactly what he is talking about, regardless of what you and others on here believe.
I believe in his interview he explained he doesn't know all about the ERS side of things.

saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:11 am
Yes. The ‘K’ ‘HARVESTING’ under braking is the same mechanism when lift-and-coasting, essentially engine braking, But apart from the engine braking, which means the engine is as explained elsewhere, is driving the ‘K’, it is during lift and coast driving the ‘K’ free of any ‘IN’ or ‘OUT’ load as both the throttle which activates deploying and the brake pedal, which activates harvesting are not activated – being used.
Why do you think that recovery is activated by the brake pedal?

Certainly deployment is not controlled completely by the throttle pedal - it doesn't always deploy when the throttle is activated.
Deployment ('K'- to - crankshaft is dependent on throttle, if throttle pedal is not being activated there is no deployment by 'K'. Harvesting ('K' - to - 'ES/'H' is dependent on brake pedal, if brake pedal is not being activated there is no harvesting by 'K'. But as explained before, In both cases as long as the engine is running the 'K' is riding along on the crankshaft.
Why do I say that recovery is activated by the brake pedal. Because 'K' converts kinetic energy from the brakes that would otherwise have gone to waste into electrical energy. If electrical energy is harvested by the 'K' when the brakes are not activated, that harvesting is being done by using fuel (engine running 'K'). As I said, am more than convinced that the RBPT engineer known exactly what he was talking about.

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aleks_ader
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Well he is developing combustion chamber and test benchers. So for him any ERS knowledge doesn't change anything. I would not exclude loopholes in engine mapping in that area.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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aleks_ader wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:55 pm
Well he is developing combustion chamber and test benchers. So for him any ERS knowledge doesn't change anything. I would not exclude loopholes in engine mapping in that area.


So we are here to believe that a man of the caliber of a formula one engine design team leader engineer went into an interview with one of the top technical magazines and he was pushing out opinions which are out of his competence. PLEASE count me out of this on here subject as too much is too much to stomach.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:38 pm
Why do I say that recovery is activated by the brake pedal. Because 'K' converts kinetic energy from the brakes that would otherwise have gone to waste into electrical energy. If electrical energy is harvested by the 'K' when the brakes are not activated, that harvesting is being done by using fuel (engine running 'K'). As I said, am more than convinced that the RBPT engineer known exactly what he was talking about.
In lift-and-coast the engine is making the same amount of power that it is when the brakes are activated.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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The only possible use of the MGU-K to charge the ES or help the ‘H’ by burning fuel (‘K’ run by engine) will still involve the activation of the brake and throttle pedals at the same time.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:46 am
The only possible use of the MGU-K to charge the ES or help the ‘H’ by burning fuel (‘K’ run by engine) will still involve the activation of the brake and throttle pedals at the same time.
the driver lifts off the accelerator but doesn't touch the brake pedal .....
the ICE gets no fuel .....
in such generating the K is reducing the car speed & PU rpm etc - turning unwanted KE into electrical energy

this isn't 'burning fuel' ....
so it isn't 'engine running the K'

sorry if this is repetitious

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:19 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:46 am
The only possible use of the MGU-K to charge the ES or help the ‘H’ by burning fuel (‘K’ run by engine) will still involve the activation of the brake and throttle pedals at the same time.
the driver lifts off the accelerator but doesn't touch the brake pedal .....
the ICE gets no fuel .....
in such generating the K is reducing the car speed & PU rpm etc - turning unwanted KE into electrical energy

this isn't 'burning fuel' ....
so it isn't 'engine running the K'

sorry if this is repetitious

No problem with being 'repetitious' at least with me.
Fully in agreement that the engine gets no fuel when driver lifts accelerator, but unless he activates brake pedal there will be no ‘K’ harvesting.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:38 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:46 am
The only possible use of the MGU-K to charge the ES or help the ‘H’ by burning fuel (‘K’ run by engine) will still involve the activation of the brake and throttle pedals at the same time.
No problem with being 'repetitious' at least with me.
Fully in agreement that the engine gets no fuel when driver lifts accelerator, but unless he activates brake pedal there will be no ‘K’ harvesting.
so ....

accelerator-off a (generating) MGU-K isn't run by the engine

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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‘’So …. Accelerator -off a (generating) MGU-K isn’t run by the engine”.
Unless one prefers overcomplicating simple things, ‘accelerator-off’/accelerator lifting, will not switch MGU-K to harvesting mode.
In factual terms a ‘generating’ MGU-K is run by the engine crankshaft.
A deploying MGU-K is trying to run the engine crankshaft.
A non generating and a non deploying MGU-K is getting a ride on the engine crankshaft, as long as the engine is rotating.

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aleks_ader
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:52 pm
aleks_ader wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 4:55 pm
Well he is developing combustion chamber and test benchers. So for him any ERS knowledge doesn't change anything. I would not exclude loopholes in engine mapping in that area.


So we are here to believe that a man of the caliber of a formula one engine design team leader engineer went into an interview with one of the top technical magazines and he was pushing out opinions which are out of his competence. PLEASE count me out of this on here subject as too much is too much to stomach.
Well yeah. I mean he emphasised that he is NO ERS lead. So holistically speaking it does not change his part of turbo V6 development anyway.

ERSK running under braking or under gas load does not change how combustion system works. So early in development and research it does not even matter. That is no MGUH integration like in previous years. vehicle integration and harmonics are for other departments to sort it up.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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As the one before it, the video is also interesting, so also thanks for the link. This second different track video makes things extra interesting because of the different levels of maximum power deployed per lap (different levels of maximum power) is clearly depicted between the two tracks. The difference in maximum power output possibly produced and deployed by the power unit is at a higher level (waste-gate/s open - ''free-load-mode" - with 'H' and 'k' sharing 'ES' power in the first video), while in the second Monaco video the maximum power output deployed per lap is at a lower maximum level - ''ERS BOOST'' depicting full 'K' power deployment only as an addition to what the ICE was producing with normal boost.

Hoffman900
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 pm
This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.
What's the resolution on this data and how is it being measured?

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 pm
This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.
What's the resolution on this data and how is it being measured?
It appears he is using frequency analysis from the exhaust mic to determine when the car is at full throttle and when the wastegates are open.

I couldn't guess what the resolution of the data is.